Whitehead: Sonic Team Celebrating Classic Games In “New & Exciting Way” For 25th Anniversary

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1. I had gotten so excited at the idea of new levels that I hadn’t really latched onto a concept of the game being an Anniversary title first and foremost. I might be able to re-frame my expectations around that. We’ll see.

   1. Same here!

      I had to take a step back and realise that maybe this was their intention all along… I just let my wild expectations blind me, and thus why I got so disappointed.

      But now that I’ve wrapped my mind around the idea that this is “Sonic [100% Classic] Generations”, I’m as excited for this game as when it was first announced.

2. The “brilliance” of Sonic Team strikes again, was kinda hoping they were put on a short leash after their last string of “brilliant” ideas. Still looking forward to seeing the classic levels but it’s a shame to hear that they almost certainly exist because of Sonic Team’s ego and terrible decision making skills.

   1. I don’t see why doing this because of Sonic’s anniversary is a bad thing, but whatever.

      1. It is when it torpedoes getting a full game of original zones of the caliber of Studiopolis, but whatever.

         1. Yes! This point needs to be repeated again and again and again. This one little thing, this stifling of originality, this one very minor sticking point, is causing holdbacks and stigma. Not many holdbacks and certainly not widespread stigma by any stretch of the imagination, mind you. But there are a few people reluctant to buy and clearly peeved because it is mostly old levels with some added expansion and sprucing up–nostalgia pandering is what many are calling it. I just want this game to reach its full potential because the team behind it is more than up to the task. If Aaron Webber reads enough of comments like this, perhaps his clout with the big cheese–he got Takashi Iizuka to star in the infomercial, for crying out loud!–will get them to seriously reconsider.

         2. For further context, read my link at the very end of this comment. I want as many people (fans and non-fans alike) as possible to be happy with this game so this game can sell as well as possible. The fan developers, especially PagodaWest Games, have shown they are more than up to the task of creating quality games of many varieties without compromise. Christian Whitehead and Stealth have created numerous ports and original ideas based on the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise that are consistently bug-free, aesthetically beautiful, and fun to play. Please give these talented, proficient, passionate fan developers the clearance to create more original levels.

            http://www.tssznews.com/2016/09/20/iizuka-on-sonic-twitch-stream-sonic-mania-will-have-more-classic-levels-than-new-ones/#comment-314624

         3. At least we’re getting a 3D game that MIGHT have Sally Acorn in it.

         4. This is by no means an exhaustive list. Here is a mere sampling of places where I have seen “rehash” stated concerning the same levels. You can find more with that search term, as well as similar words (copycat, unoriginal, etc.) and negative descriptors (overrated, overhyped, etc.). I hope this helps bring perspective on the matter!

            http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sonic-25th-anniversary-sonic-mania-2d-and-sonic-project-2017-3d.3577737/#post-6927915

            http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/23/12262006/sonic-mania-announced-ps4-pc-xbox-one#386273745

            https://www.gamnesia.com/news/sonic-mania-is-a-brand-new-2d-sonic-game-that-reimagines-the-classic-sonic#comment-2799595945

            http://www.usgamer.net/articles/if-sonics-new-games-are-half-as-good-as-their-marketing-were-in-for-a-treat#comment-7

            http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/gameplay-video-of-sonic-mania-33359614/?page=1#js-message-354357043

            http://veekyforums.com/thread/155325590/video-games/sthg-sonic-the-hedgehog-general.html

         5. This is by no means an exhaustive list. Here is a mere sampling of places across the web where I have seen “rehash” stated concerning the matter of old levels. You can find more examples besides these seven by searching for “Sonic Mania” together the search term “rehash”, as well as similar words (copycat, unoriginal, etc.) and negative descriptors (overrated, overhyped, etc.). I hope this helps bring perspective on the matter! You will have to visit this link to see my references since this site limits the number of links allowed in comments.

            http://pastebin.com/bFUctY3p

         6. PS: You’ll have to excuse my double posts on TSSZ News in the other article Iizuka On Sonic Twitch Stream: “Sonic Mania Will Have More Classic Levels Than New Ones”. I was using a mobile phone to type out literally everything and it made it cumbersome to write out my thoughts typo-free.

   2. I want to make it clear that I have from the very beginning praised this game for its merits: fan development, overall public praise, the high attention to detail, the perfect recapturing of the spirit of the originals. I am a day one preorder buyer on Amazon who bought the game without second thoughts. I have applauded and continue to applaud Christian Whitehead, Stealth, and PagodaWest Games, who are without equal, for their finely crafted, beautiful, and contagiously fun game that they are creating for all of us, for making the community proud on a level that truly no video game fan base has ever seen.

      With that clearly addressed, SEGA, Aaron Webber, and whoever else who is in a position of authority or who can pass along these concerns to the higher ups at SEGA, please seriously read, consider, and take action on the concerns I bring up because, though they are not my concerns, they are concerns of a few others, and you can find their concerns online in forum threads and article comments dashed throughout. I think if you sincerely reconsidered and handed the keys to the fan developers, so to speak, giving them permission to create more original levels than initially planned, you could capture a larger segment of buyers than at present. Please seriously consider this because we want and I know you want everyone to be happy and included when this product comes out, to feel like this is the best product they could possibly buy to enjoy Sonic the Hedgehog gameplay.

3. Fair enough I guess. I would have preferred more new levels, but it IS an anniversary title after all, and really I’m curious as to how they’re going to rework all of those levels, wouldn’t mind some CD content myself. As long as it feels like a balanced Sonic game one way or the other, using classic levels is probably the weakest offense that Sonic Team ever committed, comparatively speaking, really this should be a thing to be excited over.

   1. Agreed! I am very excited for the old reimagined levels they are going to be making. I know this game does not qualify as one of the fantastic four of main series, but I personally would not mind it seeing some Knuckles Chaotix level elements or influence creep in.

4. I’ll take that to mean we’re getting a lot of both. In any case I’m excited.

5. Complaining about this sort of things before actual release is childish; I think, if final product’s quality is excellent, then it doesn’t really matter which type of stages is used more. I trust the team that develops Sonic Mania, and you should too.

6. This may not be the right comparison here but Has anyone here played ZELDA CLASSIC for the PC? If not go look into those custom quests and play a few or watch pixcalibur123’s videos on youtube (in particular the unofficial 3rd and 4th quests) and you can get an idea of what reinventing something classic is like. Quite honestly all those custom quests exceeded some strange @$$ dreams I had when I was a kid quite literally. I still say this will work just fine. Just another go at a Sonic & Knux style game was right up my alley from the start. Now another comparison is how about all these Sonic Fan Games/Hacks and Mods like you see in Sonic Generations? Nothing short there but usually the outreach of it is pretty positive with constructive criticism of course too. 😎

7. There, see? If this is anything to go by, we’re getting way more than just 9 stages with 2 acts each, that means that the game might still well be around 38-48% new stages (I’m just tossing out a BS percentage range, basically less than to just under 50%). Let’s say that we have a number like, I don’t know, 14 stages. Rather than an even 7 new, 7 reinvented, we might get a ratio like 6 new, 8 reinvented, or 5 new, 9 reinvented, worse case would be 4 new, 10 reinvented.

   Point is Aaron is expressing a terminology I’ve stressed before on this issue, “quality over quantity”. We’re getting a BIG game for a classic styled game, so the exact number of new and reinvented stages isn’t going to be that relevant, not when you could get as many as 14 to 25 stages in total (I’d actually faint if they gave us 25, but you get the idea), you’re still getting a lot of levels.

   1. I said “Aaron” when it was Christian Whitehead talking. Epic fail. XP

   2. A good point! SEGA is obviously playing it on the extreme safe side of things by showing a polarized preference towards quality over quantity, especially in light of recent historic blunders (Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, Sonic the Hedgehog ’06) which is perhaps other unspoken reason, besides it being the anniversary, that they are not allowing the fan developers the creative liberty to build more original zones. Maybe something they should seriously consider, especially if this game turns out to sell extremely well as the projections are showing, is DLC or episodes. This would be a very convenient way for the developers to meet the current release window without pressure while also satisfying the on-the-fence buyers who have been recently turned off by the ratio of original-to-reimagined levels.

8. Well whatever levels they are bringing I hope it will be fantastic.

9. I have a theory that the game’s plot involves Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles being in a movie (made by Robotnik maybe?) which tells the tale of the Death Egg Saga (+ Little Planet), and as any movie adapted from any other media, some changes are made (such as the level layout and the playable characters).

   Maybe Studiopolis is the first stage! Or 2nd.

   In any case, I JUST realised that my wish of playing as Knuckles in CD will come partially true!

10. “for the 25th anniversary Sonic Team wanted to celebrate the classic titles in a new and exciting way.”

    Like replaying a slightly modified GHZ for the 19627th time in the 27th game featuring it with the lame excuse of being nostalgic? So NEW and EXCITING! We sure didn’t do that before!
    Soooo…how long do we have to wait until we can finally experience completely fresh ideas in a brand new experience? You know! The kind of stuff that doesn’t get hammered by the constant shoehorning of nostalgia or exclusivity contracts?
    We’ve been doing this since Generations almost non-stop.
    What’s the point of celebrating the 25th anniversary if the only thing they care about are the first 4-5 games of a franchise with 20 years of gaming history (not counting the last 5 as most of it was ALREADY built with nostalgia pandering)?

    Sonic Anniversaries have used to be more ambitious and awesome not just in terms of content, but in terms of general interactions as well, like: what’s the deal with the PC ports? the movie? Project 2017? I have a feeling that all of these infos will be dropped at us at once during the lastest days of the anniversary, so they can justify their excuse of not telling us anything because “HEY May 2017 is STILL the 25th anniversary, so be grateful that we still exist and shut up!”

    This is nice and all, but I just can’t imagine Sonic’s future like this. What will we do 5 years from now? Still celebrating the “glory days” with the shoehorning of Classic imagery and other nostalgic crap? How long can a franchise possibly sustain itself SOLELY with memories and self-deprecating jokes I wonder?

    1. Even for the quote-unquote “original ideas” like Lost World seem to be too endreched in trying to hard be Neo-Classic. Generations did it one time and it didn’t try going the route like Lost World did, and that’s not even going into the questionable writing by Pontaff that verges on being Chronicles-level bad.
       Also, does Sonic 3D Blast techically count as a 5th anniversary game? That didn’t rehash every zone from Sonic 1-3&K. Sure had some similar level tropes but nothing full on copying them, and especially since the Genesis version had completely new visuals and that GORGEOUS soundtrack.
       Only time an anniversary game had a big callback to the original Sonic would be SA2’s final secret Green Hill stage, and that was after getting EVERY EMBLEM.

       1. When I was talking about anniversary titles I meant stuff like:
          SA2 – made for the 10th anniversary (probably one of the greatest Sonic games period)
          ’06, Sonic Riders – 15th anniversary (flopped ambition and a rad idea which later got it’s mini series only to rot away gloriously with a kinect exclusive “conclusion”)
          Generations – 20th anniversary (interesting concept with awesomely wasted potential resulting in an overall boring gaming experience)

          So far this current one feels like the most anticlimatic one mostly because Sega simply went “fuck it all” and chose to play it safe instead of being daring and trying some brand new, truly fresh ideas.
          Now they’re just creating a semi-recycled glorified level pack for Classic fans and are probably working on something else that which (judging from the teaser) had began development during the first airing of the Boom TV series’ first season.
          The Project 2017 teaser is both confusing and uninformative. We were supposed to believe that this ain’t Generations 2, yet almost every single second of it communicates the polar opposite.

          So right now: Promises, uncertainty, waning hope/interest and additional bullcrap is what makes up this anniversary so far.

          Happy Birthday, Sonic a.k.a. zombified desperate nostalgic cashgrab who refuses to evolve and amaze it’s audience since 2010.

          #somuchfast, gottagobig

11. I ll be more than happy to experience brand new zones, but i guess it has become difficult to create new zones that are really innovative. Let’s say that if the game has a total of 25 zones, with only 6 or 7 “new” zones, that would be fine to me. what matters the more is the level design, not the “graphic aspect” of the zones. personally, i’ve always wanted to see more of existing zones, like an act IV of green hill, marble hill etc.

12. Something tells me this isn’t the last time during an anniversary that we’ll be seeing Green Hill Zone….

13. I just want some new info. I was under the impression that 2016 would be the big news year, but I guess not. I liked scene 60, but that went into hiatus because there just isn’t enough news. There’s more than 2015, but not as much as I would have thought for the year that the games were finally revealed. Just got to keep being patient…

14. Talking about the revisited stages I seriously hope they included their Hidden Palace Zone!

    Also:
    Marble Zone
    Wing Fortress Zone
    Ice Cap Zone
    Lava Reef Zone
    Stardust Speedway

15. “It’s an Anniversary game!”

    “It’s a big game!”

    What shitty excuses.

    1. SEGA could easily have their cake and eat it too if they simply made a slight change in plans and allowed the more-than-capable hands of Taxman, Stealth, and PagodaWest Games to make a few more original levels than reimagined ones. Even if SEGA fears they would be putting too many time constraints on them with the current set of deadlines for the spring 2017 release, at least do it as free, post-release DLC, episode pack, update… something! Then they would have the last few percent of potential buyers like you satisfied while everyone else remains satisfied as they already have, and, as a result, SEGA would sell even more copies of Sonic Mania! I may be 100% satisfied and awed with Sonic Mania as-is, but I totally see your concern as valid, and I believe it should be addressed for such an important, high profile game, a game that should meet expectations all across the board for as many people as possible. I know Donnie wants us to remain positive (and I am!) which, in my humble opinion, is why he is downplaying this, but your feelings are your own, you know yourself best, and you don’t want a drawback (as small as it is to others like SSF1991 or myself) like this to be there that you know will disappoint you. None of us can say otherwise for you, because what you like is your freedom of choice! All SEGA needs to do is give one simple green light to the Sonic Mania developers and then they would close this gap!

       1. It also depends if certain people at Sonic Team and SOJ have a vested interest in not giving us a 100% original Classic Sonic game and want to hold it back and handicap it by pigeonholing by saying it’s a one time thing for the anniversary, that would be nutter than peanut butter giving the massive positive buzz it’s gotten and continues to get but given how they’ve been the past it depressingly wouldn’t surprise. If Sega ignores Mania most probably outperforming 2017 it’s time for some heads over there to roll.

          1. That or Sonic Team’s ego: being outdone by fans when they themselves (Sonic Team) still couldn’t get it right after trying for twenty years. Out of curiosity, is there an accepted theory as to why SEGA lost its touch in 2D? I mean, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the last 2D game made by SEGA themselves that had the creative ball rolling. And then, the 2D creative well went bone dry, akin to the dark age of Disney when Walt died. Dimps did their own thing for SEGA with Sonic Advance that fared well, but SEGA’s Sonic 4 seemed really formulaic and unimaginative. It seemed to be just using the same tropes and themes without creating a new adventure of its own. As for me, I think Sonic Mania, when you compare it besides something like New Super Mario Bros. or Sonic 4 makes Nintendo’s work and SEGA’s previous efforts look like the true nostalgia pandering here. Just look at it: Studiopolis Zone is quite seriously the most imaginative thing I have ever seen from SEGA since the Genesis days. The little details from the Eggman black-and-white screen projection to the very nuanced weight shifting on the van as Sonic moves across it. This game is chock full of minuscule details of real creative sweat that actually had true passion behind it. Pure unadulterated artistry going on there, the synergistic Sonic phenomenon that we have all been inkling for for years. That is why, though I understand where the people who object to the current original-to-reimagined zone ratio are coming from, I myself would personally not go as far to call Sonic Mania nostalgia pandering. Sonic 4 would be a better example of that, and New Super Mario Bros., though a somewhat better production than Sonic 4 as a callback to the classic platformer, a clear case of nostalgia pandering. Both of those game series reuse character designs in all their releases and have levels that look like just permutations of the same classic levels we have seen and played in the past. Sonic Mania actually creates new levels with new assets, with a climate and culture of its own from all the little details all wrapped together into one neat package. This is the what fantastic four of the original Genesis Sonic games did, and, golly, it is great to have that old magic back once again in Sonic Mania!

          2. The games industry as a whole lost it’s touch with 2D platformers after 3D hit the scene, it became taboo to do anything with it with handhelds being it’s Alamo until they sprang back to mainstream popularity around 2008. They got obsessive with 3D seeing it as the future that all games must be designed around simply because it was the new thing that pushed hardware more rather than understanding the strengths of 2D, the strengths are easily put on display when you compare the sales numbers of the NSMB games versus the 3D Marios.

             Dimps understood classic 2D Sonic well enough but they completely lost the script when it came to Sonic 4 Episode 1, a emphasis was placed on shoehorning 3D Sonic game design into it while nerfing and removing those that defined the Classic games, momentum was non-existent replaced with endless dashpads, homing attacks were made a necessary not only because of the bubble bridges but because of the midair uncurling which punished you trying to play it like a actual Sonic game.. Episode 2 made some progress in fixing but still wasn’t enough to be anything but mediocre, another missed opportunity.

16. I’m disappointed that the remixed stages outnumber the new ones, but I don’t see why this is as bad as people are making it out to be.

    We want a full game of new stages like Studiopolis. Sonjc 2 has a about 11 and 3&K as a whole had like 12? So what if we HAVE 12 stages or even 13 (hypothetical wishful thinking) and simply have an ADDITIONAL 14 or 15 old remixed stages for the sake of anniversary??

    What if it does cut down te number of new stages but is just additional? Almost like 2 full classic anniversary games in 1. 1 being completely new and the other being a remix game.

    That’s what it sounds like he’s implying so that’s not so bad if that’s what they mean. o-o

17. *Sonic 2
    XD

18. My hype is rising again. Maybe Iizuka shouldn’t talk about this game anymore and stick to project 2017. Every time he says something I fear the worst.

    1. Maybe Iizuka should get out period, if their 2017 game turns out to be another mess Sega is certified insane to keep him around.

19. I think the game will be 12 zones with 7 classic zones and 5 new ones. I’m fine with it. In addition we don’t know anything about the plot of the game yet.

    1. Provided they actually give it a plot as opposed to making it just “LOL NO STORY CUZ IT’S CLASSIC AND SIMPLE”

20. I think Sonic Mania will be either just as big or bigger than Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

    1. Gaming god willing.

21. My issue with them playing the “anniversary celebration” card is that there was really only ONE mainline Sonic title between this and the LAST “celebration of Sonic’s history”

    I hardly want to go back to the days of rushed, yearly Sonic titles, and I appreciate the extra dev time going into these projects now… but at this rate Sonic is going to become a series that ONLY exists for masturbatory anniversary titles, and we’ll NEVER get to see any fresh ideas.

    Alas, it is what it is.

    1. I’ve been feeling this way for every series lately. Gears is 10, Halo is like 12 or something, Mario is 30, DK is 26, Zelda is 29, Kingdom Hearts is 10, hell even Senran Kagura is 5. These are just the ones I know of that got a celebration recently (poor Metroid, lol). The industry as a whole really needs to start only celebrating decades, or even 15 years. Games usually take at least 2 years to make, so what are we celebrating in 5 years? One, maybe two games? That’s too much man.

    2. It is safe to say Sonic will forever live in the “glorious” 90s right? Because I see Sega will only tease new Sonic games whenever he reaches a milestone anniversary.
       Sadly, it is what many companies these days are doing as well. Play it safe, stuck themselves in the stupid nostalgia train and never get out of it.

22. I can’t fathom this being a good thing. It’s really starting to sound exactly like what it is… a glorified rom-hack.

    1. It isn’t a rom-hack. It is a new Classic Sonic Game to celebrate 25th anniversary. They are doing now what they didn’t in the 20th anniversary. One game perfectly like the classic titles to Classic Sonic without the issues that Classic Sonic had in Sonic Generation.

23. For those who are not bothered by this news, I am genuinely happy for you. Everyone here wants to be excited about sonic – remember, this is where loud and frustrated reactions stem from. Most of us I think have run the gambit long enough to have spent time sitting in all camps. We can be happy for those who are happy, and bummed for those who are bummed, because we’ve been both. We know how it feels.

    It is true that we don’t yet know the exact ratio or the number of stages, and that may lessen the impact of “bummerness” many are feeling. It is also true that we don’t know the degree of redesign, alteration and newness of the classic stages. Until we have more visual evidence, it is a matter of “sega said this, sega said that.” Individual levels of trust will differ. If it is possible for fans to misunderstand Sega regarding new stages, then it is also possible to do the same regarding any other facet, including the amount of redesign. So we must be careful.

    Personally, I am not (without visual evidence) much impressed by “remixed” classic stages. I wasn’t when the game was announced. I still am not knowing there will be more than initially expected. I can see ways in which it could be fun (a sudden asteroid devastates Green Hill), and many ways in which it wouldn’t be (for me). I was sincerely hoping for a majority of brand new stages, so yes, right now I am bummed. 🙁

    We shall have to see how it goes, I suppose.

24. IMPORTANT!!!!! Words from Stealth in Sonic Retro about the level ratio thing:

    “Also, knowing what I do about the state of Mania’s level roster makes the general reaction to the ratio seem pretty ironic in a way. I think everyone has the best interest of this project in mind, and had you the knowledge we did, you’d find much of your worries less justified. I see where you’re coming from, though “

25. I’m more wondering which classic stages are going to be remixed.

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