AAUK Chastises "Elitist" Veteran Sonic Fans on Blognik
It is one thing for the ongoing debate concerning a Sonic fan versus a “true” fan, and the typical split between older veterans and new generation Sonic lovers, to run its course through independent venues. It is quite another when it is addressed through official Sega channels.
Today, Sega Europe employee Kevin Eva, under his ArchangelUK handle on the Sonic City Blognik, tried to level the playing field between fans old and new, in a push for peace between the two factions. But in doing so, he called seasoned Sonic veterans who put down the new generation “elitist.”
“I’m talking about that rather annoying spectre that haunts the Sonic Community at times,” Eva wrote, “Namely the ‘we’re better than they are’ types of Sonic fan. Specifically in the case of (Project) Needlemouse we’re talking about dreaded elistist fan.”
Eva, framing his case around two comments with two different opinions–one referencing “true” fans, one not–he made the case that the opinions of older Sonic fans are no less relevant than the younger ones. In doing so, he affirmed that Sonic a franchise meant for children first, now and in the past:
Now the vast majority of old school fans are awesome, absolutely S-Rank superstars – BUT there are those out there that believe that all Sonic games should be for them. Needlemouse may well be going in a classic direction – how much so, you’ll have to wait and see – but just because it is it doesn’t give older fans the right to shun, put down or shout down the younger fans.
[….]
I’m getting a bit weary of these elitist “real fan” type of comments, let’s ignore the comments about not liking Unleashed, because that’s their opinion of the game – which they’re entitled to. Its the start and end of this particular paragraph I’d like to address.
Firstly, Sonic has always been a game with kids at their heart. We’ve all grown up over the last 18 years, Sonic’s focus overall has not really shifted in that time. Yes, Needlemouse is (from what we know so far) angled towards the classic, but the statement that “Children have no business playing Sonic” is utter Pingas of the highest order. Especially if you have an email address with your year of birth in it showing you’d’ve been five or six when Sonic 1 came out.Guys, newer fans like the Sonic X-generation fan or even fans who became Sonic fans with Unleashed are entitled to their opinions – even about Needlemouse. There are fans out there who like Unleashed, and Shadow The Hedgehog and Riders and even Sonic 06. Likewise there are some fans that like Amy, some fans like Big, some Sonic fans don’t even care that much about Sonic as a character and there are those that don’t think the originals games were all that hot.
Just because they’re younger, it doesn’t mean your opinion is better (it doesn’t mean its worse either) and that they don’t know anything, and saying they are aren’t isn’t exactly display the sort of maturity 18 years should’ve accumulated.
Though posted on an official Sega blog, it’s unclear whether this can be interpreted as an official Sega stance, moreso than a personal opinion. That noted, it is the first time such rhetoric has been relayed on official channels by an official Sega employee. We should also note that Eva runs Sonic Wrecks, and if solely his opinion, could just as easily have made it known there.
The intent to bridge divisions and bring fans together is admirable, but Eva’s words, if official and if taken to heart, could do more harm than good. Veteran fans–even those not guilty of the aforementioned actions–have long felt scorned with Sega’s more obvious push in recent years to market Sonic toward children. Further, if the next Sonic is a download-only affair for XBOX Live and PSN, as has been hinted at, it would be those veterans, able to easily purchase the game, who hold the key to Project Needlemouse’s success. Should Sega show any wavering of confidence in those veterans, they in turn could lose confidence in Needlemouse’s direction, and that could under these circumstances seriously damage the game’s chance at commercial success.
Further veteran alienation remains a big risk, especially in the name of quelling fan in-fighting, and especially since we barely know more about Project Needlemouse than we did four months ago. Do you think such a risk is worth it? Tell us in the comments section.
I’d have to disagree with him. A 10 year old child will most certainly not have a better opinion on games like Sonic Unleashed then an adult. EVER!
It’s certainly true that one you’ve played more games, you’re better able to judge their quality…
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but it’s how they go about voicing it that causes the most problems. I for one try to stay out of the fan vs. fan debate, but I definitely think that from SA2 onwards, there’s been a large decrease in quality. And I don’t say that because of my age when they came out, or my age now. There are tangible points and flaws in the newer titles that simply weren’t the in the older games.
I don’t think you can judge an opinion on a better or worst scale.
Heh heh! Perfect! I am glad AAUK said all of this. Good work, man!
Also, I would like to state that I am in agreement with Zink. It IS good to have your own opinion and be entitled to it, but how you state your own opinion is a different story…
Look you can like something more or less than anybody else, but bad design is fact.
heres a quote of a reply at the blognik;
I’m glad you wrote this. There are some forums in the Sonic community that just won’t let you join unless you [i]are[/i] an elitist. They will completely shun anyone young who attempts. Usually, these people are very rude and believe that swearing at [i]at[/i] others’ is not a problem (this includes the staff of these forums). These people need to stop being so immature and act more like a human being.
i wonder where hes talking about 😉
King Scourge: Bad design? A fact? Maybe how the game was designed can make up a fact, but does everyone think that the design is that bad like you may see it, and do they even have enough trouble with such design to call it bad, and would they even care, even if you manage to prove how bad the level design is when it does not even bother them?
For the most part, the answer is no. No matter how any game is made or designed, the view on how good or bad such design is will always be relative, and not everyone will think that the design of whatever Sonic game you may talk about is that bad, nor will they be bothered by it or even care, especially if they can still get through the level, practice, or overcome the challenges in the game to where it would not bother everyone.
You cannot speak for everyone, Scrouge, no matter how strongly you see something such as a game design, and not everyone has to agree with what you think about it to. So, for that matter, you cannot declare a game design being bad as a pure fact, despite how many people agree with you there.
@Impish: lollin’! It’s funny because one of our members was made a Tech Member when he was 10 years old. 🙂
Sonic Rush is a fantastic example. It’s game where the only real hazard is pitfalls, but you’re moving at the stupidly high rate of speed. Most of the time, you have to have memorized the stage before you can feasibly beat it in the later levels. That is plodding, it is bad stage design. Stage design that is COUNTER TO THE NATURE OF ITS INTENT is bad design.
People can like bad things if they want. Hell, people liked Sonic X didn’t they? I’m only making the point, however you feel about it personally, it’s still poorly done.
Also, Rockman Zero, let me quote something here:
“Just because they’re younger, it doesn’t mean your opinion is better (it doesn’t mean its worse either) and that they don’t know anything, and saying they are aren’t isn’t exactly display the sort of maturity 18 years should’ve accumulated.”
See, what you said is just backing up this quote here, and as I see it, what you said reeks of bias, self centered-ness and a big inability to accept that no matter how old they are, it is still their opinion, and your opinion is no better than their’s. You, based on what you said, are just showing to be more immature, even if you are not 18. You simply cannot put other’s opinions down just because they are younger, for even their opinion counts, regardless of reasoning. Whatever age you are in, you are showing to lack such maturity for a person your age, just wanting something from Sega just because that something you want is based on something that you saw as good, and you show no care about what anyone else would want or not want, as if your desires and opinions matter and others, especially younger people, do no. That is not only BS, but utter ignorance and really immature behavior. You also seem to want to not admit that Sonic games are for kids, but rather those such as you who want a certain Sonic game that is not even necessary to be made in your way to be good, especially when there are people who may still not like it, despite any claims you make on how they would. And you put down the opinions of younger people just because you think that they don’t know what makes a good game just because you disagree with their views? BAH! You are no better than they are, especially with that foolish, elitist behavior you just displayed.
AAUK does not know nothing, for he knows a lot about this. You are just refusing to accept what he said because of your bias, immaturity and inability to agree with him when he has actually made some good points you cannot seem to realize. No matter how young other people are, your disagreement with their opinion, whatever may be the reasoning behind it, does not even make you a better fan than they are. Their opinon matters to, not just yours or any other Sonic elitist alone. You cannot change that either, so the best you can do is get over it, for while you can disagree, you cannot even change the opinions and views of anyone on this planet to your favor, whatsoever.
I personaly like the new generation of sonic the hedgehog, i’m not saying that the retro games are bad, but i was born in 1995. I hate when people say i’m a next gen fanboy, when they are younger than me or just a tiny bit older, they think they were born in the 80s. I have to admit i did grow up a little bit in the 90s like 1998 and 1999, but i prefure The new generation sonic the hedgehog series. In a way, it don’t really matter because sonic will always be sonic, he has NO clone, he was always sonic and will always be sonic. New design or Old design, hes still the same cool blue dude that we know.
The overall message was clear: AAUK is saying a customer is a customer, and everyone’s opinions are considered equally. If you pick out a sentence and debate around it without considering everything that was mentioned, you’re taking something out of context.
When AAUK stated, “I’m talking about that rather annoying spectre that haunts the Sonic Community at times…Namely the ‘we’re better than they are’ types of Sonic fan. Specifically in the case of (Project) Needlemouse we’re talking about dreaded elistist fan,” he was stating a personal opinion. It’s pretty obvious. I don’t want to put words in his mouth; hell, I’m sure all one would have to do is MESSAGE him on the messageboard he posted on and ask him his intent of that message.
If this is the case, that this is just an opinion taken out of context, then I agree with AAUK. I’m really tired of the pessimistic, cynical vibe that most Sonic “fan-sites” are delivering nowadays. “The Sonic Cycle?” Ever hear of Nintendo? Portable systems? You know, the DS? Outselling the Wii as of now? Sonic games are on it. I could go on and on; point is I’m just as annoyed with outspoken elitists as I am frustrated with Sonic Team’s poorly polished games(but not as of late, I could tell SU atleast had some work done to it, unlike Sonic ’06).
All in all, I don’t see the harm in this. I trust Tristan’s more intelligent than to deliberately form random feuds with AAUK just because of what happened with ASR.
People have their own opinions about everything from the color of their shoes to the heads of their governments. opinion can grow in time though it’s not exactly related to maturity or experience. If something is really bad a majority if not all will dislike it or vice-versa. One of the problems maybe communicating our opinions to each other in which it doesn’t just boil down to dislike the person on rather trivial matters like what AAUK was saying. Tolerance maybe key in these situations.
Though I do find it somewhat odd how older people can hold resentment for younger fans. That sort behavior only causes the younger generation to either see the elder as bunch of old coots or it could cause them to treat future generations of fans with similar reproach. In any case hatred gives birth to more hatred which we have quite enough.
Like I said earlier tolerance of each other as well as having the common sense not to mouth off at people will lessen the amount of fighting.
So what if Sonic was meant for kids, Ill enjoy the game notheless.
I don’t see how AAUK singling out “eliticists” and saying that Sonic was designed first for younger fans. He’s saying that he’s annoyed by how eliticists thing that everything relating to the games should be about them, while Sega looks at everyone, the young and the old, and Sega wants to make games that appeals to everyone.
Oftentimes they have mentioned in the past how a game was received. Unleashed, for example, they said appealed to younger audiences. They’re NOT saying that this is the goal they want to achieve. I’ve seen it repeated in interviews that they don’t want to just appeal to the young, but to all audiences.
“Unleashed worked well in appealing to younger audiences. Great! Now let’s try and get older audiences on board, as well.”
Sonication forwarded this to me.
AAUK speaks the truth. I’m also very tired of the elitism that runs rapid in most of the Classic/2D Sonic fandom, and it’s about time someone else said it and called them out, too. Kudos, AAUK!
I like all he said. Of course a 10 year old boy/girl can not do a really good review for exampel. But it’s still their opinions and you’re opinion isn’t better. So I think this guy is right.
I mean, if you’re an so called “adult”(And a Sonic old school fan) show it and accept the younger childrens opinions!
Well, that’s how I see it.
And btw, who cares if Sonic is aimed for kids, we older can play them too! Nothing wrong with that! You don’t have to play Moder Warfare 2 instead of SOnic just becaus you’re 18.
I’m probably a little late on the chain of this, but I agree with AAUK on this matter.
There are people who have the biggest merchandise collection, those who can play all the tracks on all instruments ever created, those who own every game on every platform and those who have spent years trying to get the highest scores and the highest ranks. None of these people are any more of a fan than the next person.
We all have different opinions – we all prefer something to something else. I personally have a soft spot for Sonic 2 (Mega Drive) and Sonic 1 (Master System) but enjoy playing Sonic Adventure, Sonic 06, Sonic Unleashed and others that are around those and followed. Admittedly, I’m not all that good at Sonic games in his 3D form and although it’ll take me a little longer to get through them, I still enjoy them nonetheless.
Another reason I’m a Sonic over Mario fan is that composers like Richard Jacques, Bentley Jones, Kenichi Tokoi, Tomoya Ohtani, Jun Senoue (and all others), create fantastic compositions and arrangements ranging from all music styles that fit with the atmosphere of the games and locations; and being a musician, this inspires me to attempt to play and arrange these for my own personal performances and enjoyment.
Sonic, like Mario, Donkey Kong, Alex Kidd, even games before the console market like Jet Set Willy, Monty Mole and say, the game where you try to get Clive Sinclair to get knighted, were all at their time, ways to keep children entertained, which they did in their masses.
The fact that a generation of people have grown up with the Sonic series, doesn’t mean that they are in some ways more of a fan. It’s the cool blueness, the speed, the attitude that makes Sonic what he is regardless of which game, comic or video he’s in.
Unfortunately, due to human nature, things like pride, jealousy and elitism will always be a thorn in any franchise, not just the Sonic series. It’s a shame but it isn’t possible for us all to live in perfect harmony.
On a closing note, if someone could give a little thought before such critisisms and judgements are written or spoken, then this animosity between fans of all ages and preferences wouldn’t be an issue worth discussing in this way.
On another note, without trying to be disrespectful, elitists should grow up and mature, and leave the playground tantrums behind them.
@Sonikku Master: Heh heh! Wanna bring up the source that said that?
I have to agree on the matter with what he said. Children might not have the best opinions around, but they’re opinion no else than anyone else’s opinion. If they like a certain game, then let them have fun with it and you don’t then move on, they’re are other games out there you know.
Hey, maybe even the kids think the games suck. Even still, the bottom line is this:
The games are selling.
This may not help convince the old school elitist about the games being for kids and such, and it may not change their immaturity, too, but I want to bring up this old TSSZ article with the CEO of both SEGA Europe and America, Mike Hayes, saying something similar.
http://www.tssznews.com/2009/08/13/sega-admits-they-cant-please-everyone/
The article said, at a certian point,
“What the interview boils down to is that Sega is re-thinking who Sonic is “for”, and that involves their primary demographic: Children 12 and under.”
And Mike himself said,
““It very much is in that under 12 group,” Hayes said. “And what we have to do is make a Sonic that is of a quality that delights that audience, first and foremost. I’d argue that we very much achieved that with products like Sonic Heroes on PS2, and I think we did that with Mario and Sonic 1 on Wii and DS. I think we did it some ways with Sonic and the Secret Rings on Wii. I think [the Wii’s Sonic and the] Black Knight was a good game.””
Now you may disagree with some of the things Mike said here, but considering he is CEO of SEGA, both of America and Europe, the latter which AAUK is working for, I just wanted to point out that not only is AAUK is not alone in such thoughts, but I am sure that even others who work for SEGA besides Mike think the same way about this.
If the children really were the most profitable demographic, tell me, why did the originals fare better 20 years ago, on a single console, when there were less gamers out and about?
It’s in Sega’s best interests to cater to the market they did from the beginning–everyone–not just for kids.
And even if it was in their best interests to cater towards kids–that’s no excuse to make bad games.
“AAUK knows nothing. Children are stupid, and are unable to review games in good detail. Maybe that explains the decline in quality for Sonic games: stupid kids will STILL think they are the greatest games ever.”
This is exactly what the guy is talking about… Being older doesn’t mean you have a better opinion, maybe between a 5 year old and a 30 year old, but between 13-15 and 30, it doesn’t make much of a difference, you don’t need to be intelligent to have an opinion (and there’s no “good” or “right” opinion). There has been a decline in quality from most people’s perspectives, but its blown out of proportion by fans like you. It reminds me of the simpsons, yes, the show has declined in quality in many people’s opinions (including mine), but because you’re older and don’t find it funny anymore, seem to think that means no one likes it.
Something doesn’t need to appeal to everyone for it to be good. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean people should go by your opinion. So if kids like sonic, but you don’t, neither of your opinions are “wrong” and neither of you are stupid. Just stop acting like opinions can be right or wrong, there’s no such thing as fact when you’re judging something, otherwise you wouldn’t HAVE to judge.
Can someone explain to me why Sonic is aimed at kids these days?
He was originally aimed at everyone to get a mass audience.
Jak and daxter, Rachet and clank, Mario and the zelda series successfully fill the role of mass appeal why don’t sega bother to do this?
I don’t buy it. They just slap the “for kids tag” over there products just to make an excuse for why the games aren’t treated with care.
Let me point out something else: Just because AAUK and Mike Hayes said that Sonic games are for kids, does not mean Sonic games are not for everyone else. Sonic games are mainly targeted towards kids, but even so, SEGA never said that such games are limited to kids alone. In fact, no matter how kiddy they are like in Sonic Heroes, or how lighthearted they are like Unleashed, not everyone will hate those games for those reasons, because not only will such reasons not prevent everyone else from buying the games, but they can actually like those games, regardless of how lighthearted or childish they may be. Just because such games may be lighthearted or childish does not mean only kids will like and play them. No. So it is not a bad thing for such games to be made that way. It is just that the content of such games, in order to be aimed towards kids, yet made for everyone, has to be balanced out in terms of graphical content, body motions, tone, setting, plot, dialong and such so many people, old and young, can enjoy them just as much, though it does not mean everyone will enjoy such games nonetheless. Still, Sonic games do not have to be dark, have cursing, or even be made to appeal to teenagers rather than children for everyone to enjoy them, for no matter how kiddy or lighthearted any future Sonic game is, it does not have to be kids only who can enjoy them, but anyone in particular. Just because some people do not like such tones of such games as Heroes or Unleashed, does not mean everyone, or most people will dislike them just as much to the point that only kids would love such games. No.
Further more, let me point out that both Mike and AAUK only said that Sonic games, even from the beginning are for kids. They never said anything about Sonic games not being meant for everyone else who is not 12 or under, nor did they say that Sonic games are for kids only. They only said that they are mainly for kids, but that does not mean they are not FOR everyone else, for they still can be, even with childish or lighthearted tones in such games.
I agree with most of what he said except for one thing. As I’ve seen with many interviews about Sonic’s development, the main focus was originally to “beat Nintendo’s Mario” at the time, but it wasn’t just that….
Back then, they were focused on trying to make Sonic appeal to audiences of ALL AGES around the world; whether it be a kid, teen, or even an adult which wasn’t an easy task. In fact, this video should explain what I’m talking about.
I think the thing that makes veteran fans angry isn’t the fact that they are making the games for kids….It’s the fact that they’ve forgotten what made Sonic successful in the first place as far as gameplay. Because of this, it makes veteran fans think that they are alienating the teens and adults (who also grew up with Sonic) due to their change in audiences. Rather than cater to everyone which Sonic was ORIGINALLY intended for, they’ve changed it to only one certain group. And because of this new change in audience appeal, it’s become to the point that SEGA (possibly, not saying for sure) hasn’t been trying because they know that kids will love it, regardless. Just like the Werehog deal and other ideas which we would call “gimmicks”.
I think that’s why most of the fans who grew up with Sonic get ticked when they hear the words “we want to appeal to kids”; because SEGA has forgotten which audience they’re supposed to please which should be both kids and adults. I’m VERY sure that when the Adventure series came out, the focus was still on everyone. It wasn’t until Heroes came when we saw this change.
I wasn’t unhappy when I saw Sonic’s look change in ’99, but now I wish it didn’t. Not because I’m being nostalgic or anything. I feel the change in this franchise should have never happened because it has divided the Sonic community so much to the point where there aren’t just “Sonic fans” in general anymore. It’s come to a point where fans are catagorized as either “old school” and/or “new school” when it shouldn’t be this way at all.
@Tristan
Thanks for the reminder. =) I’m just glad nothing but threats came out of the ordeal.
@foreversonic
Hells yeah! If anything, the music in the Sonic games have been pretty spectacular. Atleast, the catchy beats and the good vocalists weigh out the bad covers and filler music.
Why can’t Sonic just be for “everyone” ? Why must the market on whom made Sonic, be excluded? It’s simple … don’t make the game too kiddy, and don’t make the game too serious. You know, like how things use to seem.
“Further, if the next Sonic is a download-only affair for XBOX Live and PSN, as has been hinted at, it would be those veterans, able to easily purchase the game, who hold the key to Project Needlemouse’s success. Should Sega show any wavering of confidence in those veterans, they in turn could lose confidence in Needlemouse’s direction, and that could under these circumstances seriously damage the game’s chance at commercial success.”
If it’s a good game you have nothing to worry about. Word will spread.
There’s this thing man invented so people can share information. It’s called the internet.
Hey, Archangel. Shut the hell up.
Jeezus, SEGA’s employees are getting much too sassy, and they love to ridicule the older fans don’t they? No. They best go back to the 90s. Why? We suffered an entire decade of terrible new Sonic games for consoles. It’s time they catered to us with Needlemouse. Bring the 90s back into focus, incorporate the ideas that actually worked in the last decade, and watch all of the fanbase swarm to you with admiration.
Oh, and INB4 Sonic is 4KIDS! Seriously…. He was moreso aimed at teenagers, but also quite lovable by little kids and adults. Stop misinterpreting your history, Archangel.
Oh, and Mike Hayes sucks. He’s one of the many people contributing to the franchise’s downfall.
I’ve clashed with AAUK on quite a few things in the past, but be assured that I’m certainly waving my flag of support for him, this time!
what the hecks is an “Elitist”?
“utter Pingas of the highest order” rofl, lmao, lol, etc.
You know what everyone? Chill out. AAUK is supposed to be the guy in charge of SEGA-fan relationship junk. He could have posted it on Sonic Wrecks, but IT NEEDED TO BE SAID ON A LARGE SCALE.
I don’t care if you’ve been playing Sonic games since you were 5. Guess what? Sonic is still made to make 5 year-olds be amazed. Is the quality going down? Yes, in the opinions of many? But Sonic still makes children stare in awe- his entire purpose in the first place.
Also, just because some fans are younger, doesn’t mean they don’t know anything. Sure, using my 5 year-old example, you could argue they don’t know better. But there are PLENTY of new fans who know what they are talking about!
Does this mean all classic fans are elitists? No, not at all! Some of the coolest people I know like old-school Sonic. Does this mean SEGA hates it’s fanbase? No (Although I wouldn’t blame them lol)! Does this mean your opinion doesn’t matter as much as those of “kids”? Heck no! Take a chill pill everyone, and let’s watch and wait for some REAL news to complain about. 😀
@Greg the Cat:
Did you even READ AAUK’s rant, or did you read a word, say “AAUK sucks; Sega sucks; blah-blah-blah,” and ignore the rest?
Well, after you read your silly bash-fest, it’s very clear that you didn’t.
AAUK’s criticizing the “elitist” Sonic fans, and your close-minded “post” bashing Sega is clearly supporting his argument.
I will say, AAUK, that was mighty ballsy of you standing up to the elitists. And I gotta say, I agree with you entirely. Sonic is for everyone, yes, but to say it’s not for kids as well is being in downright denial.
If you grow and and you’re interest in Sonic doesn’t feel as good as it was in the yesteryear (regardless of quality or not), then it’s probably time to stand aside and let the new generation befriend him. If not, then complain once or twice (three times if you’ve been good), and be on your merry way.
I say this, because frankly I’m also sick of people telling me how to like a game, whether it be from old-school elitists or websites who don’t like something about a game and will go to the ends of the Earth just to remind us that we shouldn’t like it either.
Sonic is just as much for them as it is for us. Tell me, if you were in your mid 20’s/30’s you look at a new game in the store, and it’s a game you’ve never heard of (let’s say for now, Kingdom Hearts), you look at it (without seeing a single review for it) and you sneer at the concept, and think “this is for kids, it’s not that good”, yet your 4-9 year old kid loves the idea of venturing throughout various Disney worlds, so you get it for them anyway. So when you find your kid playing it, it doesn’t seem half bad, it seems like a lot of fun.
So now instead of pretending it’s today (lol) pretend this was sometime around 1991 after the very first Sonic comes out, and you yourself (still that same age, who also happened to give a kid his genesis/megadrive for his/her birthday/christmas, and you see this game. You sneer at this game saying, “a blue hedgehog that runs? That’ll never catch on.” But again, your kid wants it, so you get it, and back home, that kid’s having a blast, you see him play it and think that it seems fun too!
Cause hey, no matter how you look at Sonic today as you did yesterday, the day before or 15+ years ago, it always appealed to one demographic, yet it was fun for everyone, because of the work put in it.
I think today, at the very least when Unleashed is concerned, there actually has been effort put in, sure there were things we didn’t like, such as the Werehog, but the younger crowd do, and will grow up thinking (or possibly knowing if I DARE tread that line), that he was a good part of Sonic (granted there things I would have changed about his involvement, but since I don’t have that power I’ll keep my mouth shut), but the part the older demographic enjoy were the daytime stages, they were fast, fun, and definitely a love letter from Sega to the fans old. And as we approach Needlemouse (and any new release to come out), we need not continue pushing them away, but to pull them closer, and at least give them a reason why we love the classics today as we did back then.
BTW, the classics were good, but they’re not GODS, we’re not going to burn in eternal fire if we say one negative thing about what was wrong with the first Sonic onward.
[ Well, after you read your silly bash-fest ]
It should be: [ Well, after reading your silly bash-fest ]
We cant live with classic forever we need a great games
This… this article…
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/6852/1263642216506.jpg
Man I hate this war between fans, I can’t even take sides since my experience of Sonic was right between the older generation and the newer one! But to put, not all kids are right, and the same goes for the “veterans”. Yes, Sonic is aimed at children, but they WILL get tired of Sonic quickly if he’s only for kids. Being acceptable for children but still having the rush of the older days is the best we can get.
Sonic Rush is a pretty good example.
And Sonic Unleashed’s (next gen) daytime levels were axhilerating. Werehog wasn’t half bad, it was like Knuckle’s SA fighting with more moves.
@Casey
Oh definitely, let’s just keep eating all the shit SEGA pours down our throats and enjoy it. I could definitely go for some more asinine ideas and incredibly broken game play!
@ OSM and Casey
Casey said great games but just cause it’s not classic doesn’t mean it has to be bad with a ton of characters and broken gameplay. Like the Sonic Rush games for example.
This is the type of mess that makes me annoyed with the fanbase cause you guys are always angry and lash out at each other.
i 100% agree with him. These bitter and rude classic fans need to get their act together.
Everyone just have to be a little more tolerant of eachother, and respect other’s opinions. “oh but bad programming and game design is a fact not an opinion”. Yes the game may not be perfect, but other people like it for their own reasons, and may not even agree that the game is all that bad.
Example, i loved sonic unleashed, along with the werehog stages. Personally i dont see why people say those stages are so bad, i enjoyed them. (though some levels did have their flaws). It dosent make me wrong or right, its just my opinion.
AFter thouroughly reading the article and these comments, I’ m gonna have to agree with AAUK on this. Just because a fan is younger and can’t grasp certain things doesn’t mean that his heart isn”t in the wrong place. Take me for example; I’m 17 years old, and I cosider both the Werehog and Professor Pickle two of my favorite characters of the franchise, even though the Werehog technically IS Sonic. I also enjoyed Sonic Unleashed mainly due to its simplicity And lightheartedness, whereas Sonic Adventure 2 is one of my least favourite games of the franchise due to how serious they took the storyline and how obnoxiusly annoying Sonic’s attitutde was.
Project Needlemouse is way to appeal to both sides of the fanbase, but my main question is this; Wouldn’t you do the same thing if you were a kid?
It’s kind of funny, but it’s a tragedy as well.
Oh, boy. Way to take sides and understand little about either.
I’m really not going to bother anymore.
AAUK should just keep hes big trap shut! AAUK knows nothing about Sonic. He needs to get fired badly!
@Sonication: Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it stated in the Sonic Retrospective? Even if it wasn’t, I’m sure I’ve heard an official statement somewhere that Sonic’s ‘coolness’ and attitude was meant to appeal to teenagers.
Yeah, I’ve really got to admit. In my travels across the seas of the internet, at such exotic distant lands such as NeoGAF, there are insane, staunch Sonic the Hedgehog fanboys that have VERY SPECIFIC and EXTREMELY NARROW definitions of what they want from their “perfect” Sonic game – and it’s often rife with things that are no longer relevant or logical to the franchise. Things that are never going to come back and frankly, don’t need to come back. But whenever a new Sonic game forsakes anything on this list, it’s automatically The Worst Thing Ever™.
At the same time, though, looking to the younger players doesn’t strike me as the “ONE TRUE CORRECT PATH”, either. A 10 year old doesn’t know what they want. They’ll literally watch anything – as evidenced by the fact that I was 10 years old once, too. When I was 10, I was in love with shows like G.I. Joe, The original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon, He-Man, etc. If you watch a lot of that stuff today, it’s clearly obvious that it was nothing more than a vapid, mindless, blatant advertisement for an action figure. Kids will watch that stuff and say that they enjoy it. I certainly did. There’s certainly a lot of money in that line of thinking, too. But it is not better. “It doesn’t have to be sophisticated and can be bad because kids will like it anyway” is not a valid defense.
Sonic the Hedgehog needs to be a balance. It shouldn’t cater to children, it shouldn’t cater to fanboys, it probably shouldn’t be catering to any niche at all, really. Sonic the Hedgehog just needs to be a good game that everyone can enjoy, specific demographics be damned.
i don’t think the new ones are THAT bad it’s also fun but also kind of misunderstanding sometimes (sorry i have a bad english experience xD) but nah i know they’ll make it as good as before~ X3 (just believe damn it XD)
I haven’t read the comments by other users here but I shall repeat the obvious because I know must have come up – it’s not the long time fans bashing the new Sonic games. It’s EVERYONE.
I welcomed Sonic Chronicles and the Sonic Unleashed demo was amazing – but this old fallacy of an argument has a lack of validity and shows how out of touch Sonic Team can be.
Y’know, it’s quite simple. Project Needlemouse is a classic-styled Sonic game. Therefore, it should be designed with people who love classic Sonic games in mind.
If you’re saying people who DON’T like classic Sonic games should get an equal say, why not people who don’t like Sonic full-stop? After all, they’re equally catered for.
You know, many sonic games is E10+ how could this be for kids,I mean what about 4,5,6 ages,and I played almost all Sonic games,they have some serious like Shadow game or Sonic 06 or SA2.Also if Sonic for kids then what will you say about Mario I mean his games are no serious.
What I want to say is that sonic games were and always be for everyone,and I think AAUK did’nt mean sonic is for kids and only kids
god, this is fan base is frustrating. what AAUK and his supporters need to understand that a lot of the anger about the new games isn’t just because their badly made per say. is that the games are completely different in theme and in style
from the games in the 90s.
I mean how would you like it if we took all of frodo and his hobbit Friends and took them out of middle earth into modern day new york or what if we took han solo and replaced his cool smartass personality with that of boring bland nice mickey mouse.
what i fear is that the new games won’t have the staying power of the old games because the quality of the games just isnt there. because of the aforementioned bad game design, god awful voice work, etc. they’ll grow up and probably get embarrassed for liking the games in the first place.
Sonic,Mario,Mega man,Rayman,Crash and klona they all are for kids more then they are for adult so,don’t compare other characters to Sonic on this because he is more for teenagers then Mario do.
If the children really were the most profitable demographic, tell me, why did the originals fare better 20 years ago, on a single console, when there were less gamers out and about?
RockmanZero, if I’m not wrong, said this.
Here’s food for thought-
MAYBE THERE WASN’T SO MUCH COMPETITION. MAYBE SEGA GAMES SOLD MUCH BETTER. MAYBE SEGA CONSOLES WERE A BIGGER SUCCESS.
Here’s another thing. Tristan, you should be ashamed. You purposedly grabbed a natural, correctly written post and flamed it on your last paragraph to bring more views. Are you honestly turning TSSZ to Fox News?
Favorite justification? I am paraphrasing here… [Some fans don’t even like sonic, they care more about the side characters]…well then then they are not Sonic fans, and their opinion is equivalent to nothing. That is like saying I like the Mario games I just don’t like Mario, I wish the Gomba was the main character. And what it all boils down to is money, the older fans got the dough, so catering to them is key now, because they are a part of the first group of adult gamers, and they want games to be fun. And they need to desperately reboot the franchise, because the last few outings have been horrible, and I for one do not want to keep wasting my money on mediocre product. So SEGA is doing the smart thing, and going back to the basics, they can build from there, but is the right thing to do. If the kids don’t like it, well there plenty of other wonderfully mediocre games out there for them to play, let Sonic strive for greatness again.
You know what? I think Ryan Bloom’s got the right idea.
I’m just sayin’.
Well, pretty much everyone who post a comment here does. And I post “XD” all the time. What’s wrong with that?
@ Brad You can like a franchise but not like the main character. I know plenty of people who prefer Luigi OVER Mario. Also, what makes you think Sonic games would sell well to an older demographic like the first Sonic fans just because they have money? Kids have parents with money, kids can get almost anything they want, too.
Also, think about it: Sonic is a freakin’ BLUE hedgehog! A CARTOON CHARACTER. Sonic’s main appeal is and will forever be towards kids. I know most of you are upset because Sonic isn’t exactly like the Sonic you knew… but that’s just nastalgia. If you don’t like the new games, and feel that it’s slaughtering your childhood… then don’t touch them! Everytime I watch Cartoon Network I feel like my childhood is being destroyed. So what do I do? I step aside and let the next generation step up and make their own memories.
In agreement with Treleus, Ryan Bloom does have the right idea, but there’s a very huge flaw with it. One that we’ve been reminded of ever since Sonic Heroes and all the way up to now.
You can’t please everybody. >_> *happens to love Sonic Heroes by the way*
To answer your question, The person who posted this article and everybody who has made a comment about this issue care or else we can just ignore it and continue on with our business.
He really pegged it. The way some of the ‘elite’ fans treat the younger fans is just disgusting. The first game came out before I was born so yes I am one of the ‘younger’ fans, though i have played almost every Sonic game and I love em all but I find I play on the newer ones more often.
ALthough they are entitled to an opinion the are not entitled to bash someone elses opinion, I’m sick to death of being cursed out when i saw I’m a Shadow fan or I liked ’06 and to be honest if they hate so many of the games so much the word ‘fan’ isn’t really a suitable word to describe them.
They call us immature but they’re the ones acting like brats and they do need to keep in mind that it’s 2010 so 2D games really don’t cut it anymore and scaring off half the fanbase is not really a great way to show your support of the franchise.
As for Sonic X the only mistakes they made were Chris Thornedyke, turning Knux into a gullable idiot and giving it to 4Kids to dub, the latter being the biggest mistake. But other then that it’s all good.
Sonic is for everybody. In regard to older fans disrespecting younger fans, it can happen in any fanbase, but with Sonic I feel like sometimes it’s more about what a younger fan might value compared to an older fan.
As an older fan, I disagree when other older fans say things like ‘Sonic should only be in 2D’ and such. I think that’s wrong. But then again, I don’t really care for a lot of things Sega has done with the franchise, such as introducing guns n’ bikes to Shadow. Younger fans with a different view might like it, but as an older fan I have a different perspective and perhaps somewhat ironically see it as a totally inappropriate gameplay element to have been introduced in that context. For Robotnik to use it would make sense, but the way they used it with Shadow seemed like a weak appeal to the ‘GTA’ crowd, if that makes sense.
I’m getting on a tangent here.. but speaking as an older fan, again, Sonic has always been for everyone, kids and all, it’s just the attitude I sometimes see that seems to focus away from what’s important in Sonic games (such as favoring characters over gameplay) is what annoys me.
Wow…some people really don’t understand what they mean by “mainly for kids” at all do they?
Mainly for kids meaning that the game is made MAINLY for kids…duh…old fans or new…it doesn’t matter, the made IS INFACT MADE FOR EVERYONE.
So people who keep saying that Sega isn’t going for the same as they always have is full of BS. Sonic is, and always was, mainly for kids, MEANING FOR EVERYONE. What people think should all be taken into consideration, be them old or new, fans of the classic games or fans of the recent games.
I for one am an old fan which my first game EVER was Sonic 1 for Megadrive/Genesis, and I still liked most of the games released until the very last one. Of course some were better than others, but it’s my opinion.
I am surprised for some of the comments I read…I, for one am disappointed.
Claiming the franchise is aimed towards children is no excuse for the abysmal quality of recent games. Kids deserve good games too.
i think he is right, no fans should be dismissed of their opinion because of their age. dispite newer games feeling lesser than (for instance) SA1/SA2, theres always something in the newest of the games that makes me smile, something, it could even be quotes from characters, or level style etc. but its what makes me happy to be a fan of sonic, im glad not all sega’s games are following exactly the same style as with the adventure series, its nice to play something a little different, and SEGA gives us new play styles etc. all the time 🙂 learn to enjoy them!
I think to sum up what everyone is saying, back and forth…
Back when Sonic was first released, his games were of a quality that could be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of what his target audience may or may not have been. When I go back and play these games even now, I still enjoy them.
That is just something I do not find in many new games. I played them for months, then they sat in the dust. Some people put them down after mere days. But, that can vary player to player.
Even so, a game should not be designed assuming that children will enjoy it just because they’re children. These children grow up. Power Rangers is a prime example of this. While I’ve enjoyed many of the new seasons, many were just bad. In the end, they’ve had to rely on their veteran fans for support with a rerelease of MMPR. You cannot just assume that people will just buy something.
And although many of his new games are still enjoyed by many (including myself), they can still be frustrating do to poor design. This is not a subject of opinion. If you like a game, but still die from glitches, then the game still has glitches. Regardless of whether you like it or not, regardless of whether they bothered you or not. They’re. still. there.
SEGA programmers themselves have constantly admitted to being put under pressure to push out the newest Sonic game. Why give an explanation for poor quality if none exists?
And this is the problem. The Sonic fandom is often seen as divided into two sides, when that is not true. It’s three (with possibly a few subcategories): those who hate new games because they just do, people who dislike new games due to poor quality, and people who like new and old. If SEGA releases poor quality games, then it’s already on the bad end of 2/3 of its gamers.
There is a sense of absurdity in the claims of many “elitist” fans. I’ve encountered many people who dislike new Sonic and when I ask for a defense for their claim, they are unable to give any. I’ve also used my own gameplay to support any claim I’ve made. This does not mean that arguments against the new games do not exist, it just simply means that there are people who dislike something simply because it’s not what they grew up with and go out of their way to be ugly about it.
Another issue on a more global scale: SoJ vs. SoEverywhere else. Many claim that the newer SEGA games cater to Japanese audiences and this has been shown through SEGA history. Japan did not make Sonic popular, everyone else did. When I and many others look back into our past, it’s not Japan that makes me a giddy Sonic fan, it’s shows like SatAM and Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog. That should be kept in mind.
AAUK…you really hit the nail on the head with this one.
It just make me sick to see that retro fans basically shiting on the newer fans and to them that if don’t worship the genesis games like god, you need to commit suicide. I mean, so what if I like the newer games more then the older ones? What the hell happen to just liking Sonic because he was cool and liking his games because they were FUN?! Wait, what do you mean I can’t have fun? Then why do we videogam…oh, I see. We have just stuck illogical people.
I remember when I was a kid. What made a game fun was the people that you played with. After awhile I started to get a self awareness of what is hot from what is not. Then the graphics fad kicked in with PORTS games like Street Fighter. After that I was a Nintendoholic via my cousin who was high on SEGA.
SEGA died and they fled to the SONYPSX. It was a horrible. The PSX was just a 3d SNES. In fact it was just a 3d Turbo graphix. I will admit. The games that was made for the PSX was better in every which way possible. This
To be honest western games only began when METAL GEAR WAS RELEASED.
Then the X-box brought the PC games crowd to consoles. Before all of this everything in videogames was just Mario, Sonic, Cloud, Madden, WWF, and Pokemon.
American and even European gaming died during the upscale 16-bit period. We had mostly ports of movies. While the SNES and Genesis did had many hits. Most of these hits was never really anything to impress.
Speaking of how bad western gaming was lets look back at the Jagaur. The game system was from Atari. It was to outdo the SNES. However it failed.
How did it failed? There was no real games on. What is even sadder is how the name Atari represent American gaming.
Newer gamers do not known what they missed out on. 3d is just about dimension. Even more original 3d games you will have more fun on then the more recent games. Everything done in 3d is just what has been done in 2d already. Look at starfox on the SNES, before that was a NES shooter. The same with Zelda, there was another game before it.
The younger crowd is misinformed. The problem is the older crowd is not doing anything to help it. So the younger crowd just eat the crap off the floor as they usally meant to. Back then I was crazy, listen to your mature counterparts. They are the real players. 3d gaming was a gimick from the start. Now all 3d games can look fun with special effects. The Amiga can do 3d games no differnt then your recent system. All it ever needed was a powerfull 3d card.
Yes all you new gamers needs to put down the Weed stick and buy some 2d games. Mybe then you can see what we mean.
You all moan too much.