Vertical Slice: For The Kids

114 Comments

1. I’m okay with the games being a bit more kid-friendly, but with that, I feel that Sega and Sonic Team took that too far with Lost World in thinking we would be acceptable of the bare minimum, story-wise and gameplay-wise, and those fandom-forming elements go against a lot of what made Sonic popular in the first place. I don’t even think a child would find the Deadly Six the least bit interesting.

   I got into Sonic during Unleashed when I was 12, and I rather enjoyed how they handled it both story and gameplay, (yes, I liked the Werehog, at least it was a one-time thing unlike the wisps are now) and that got me into playing the the other Sonic games from the Genesis game to the Rush games that were released a few years ago at the time, and then to take the series in a whole different way just to appeal to kids seems like a rather drastic way to appeal to a younger crowd and could have been done in a different way that didn’t just completely flick off the fans they did have.

   1. You’d be surprised, there are a fair amount of people on Miiverse who actually LIKE the Deadly Six. It’s mostly Zazz and Zavok though.

      1. I’ll admit, Zazz and Zavok are the two half-way decent characters of all of the Six. If only Zazz wasn’t such a wimp during his fights.

      2. I like them because they’re so different from each other… and hilarious.

         1. Yeah, but their personality and character are so boring and equal up to being sterotypical villains with with no real interest to them what-so-ever.

      3. Take notice that this is people from the “Miiverse”……….

2. I’m really digging these Vertical Slices!

   1. Thanks a lot! I appreciate that you took the time out to read the article AND let me know that you liked it!

3. THE best Vertical Slice yet, without a doubt.

   1. Oh you!

4. My childhood was so similar to this it’s almost freaky. I still remember my earliest years playing Sonic 1 as a toddler and not even being able to tell my left from right yet, hoping if I keep holding left on the D-pad I’ll unlock new parts of the stage to explore.
   As an adult its all too easy because the formula is imprinted into your minds how video games typically work, even when your buying brand new games you’ve never played before but it’s impossible to forget your oldest memories when it was all so new and foreign to us.

   Fast forward to 15 years later where my younger sister first became exposed to Sonic through Sonic Rush on her brand new DSi and watching her attempt to blast through the first level.
   It’s actually pretty scary in a way how fast kids these days pick things up, despite games being 20x more complicated than they were in the simpler times of Sega and Nintendo.

   I mean you think of all the kids these days who grow up with the internet and games like GTA 5 and Call of Duty where as we couldn’t possibly imagine such technology even existing back in the 90’s, it’s just evident that kids really are going to be the stronger species when they grow up while we can do nothing but fade with the relics of our time.

   My only selfish request is that Sega just stop making bad games for fucks sake already. I mean seriously, who WANTS games like Sonic 06, Sonic Free Riders or Sonic Lost World to be their first exposure to the franchise or oldest childhood memory growing up? That shit can leave lasting scars man.
   I sunk hours into games like Bubsy the Bobcat, Alex Kidd in Miracle World, Dynamite Dux on SMS and Tom and Jerry the Movie as a kid, only to later find out as an adult that It wasn’t ME who was sucking badly at the games and couldn’t grasp the easier way of doing things, the games in general just sucked. You don’t know that as a kid, you play whatever your parents hand you. Your nostalgic memories just feel like a lie and that shit can leave scars…

   Seriously, Fuck movie licence games, and fuck developers who don’t put 100% effort in to the product they’re trying to create. It’s unfair to dictate what has a right to exist or not but there needs to be a higher standard.
   But hey, maybe I’m ranting over nothing. I mean that’s what rating systems are for after all, right? And with the games industry being as big as it is and games being so affordable these days it’s not really a big issue if you get lumped with a bad game every once in a while as your spoiled rotten for choice.

   Man, remember when Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was £49.99 ($59.99?) that very Christmas?
   Balls-to-Those-Times! Nostalgia can suck an egg!

   1. “Seriously, Fuck movie licence games”

      *holds Aladdin, A Bug’s Life, Toy Story 2, GoldenEye, first two Spider-Man movie games, Return of the King, and 2009 Ghostbusters game to his chest*

      There there, he didn’t mean it…

      1. All old games NOT made or published by SEGA

      2. Ah damn, I didn’t mean it. Honest :'(

5. Sonic games don’t have to have terrible overtones and overly-simple gameplay to be suitable for “kids”.

   And, actually, as for your last question, kids aren’t my problem: I’m not all that worried if SEGA “takes” cringe-wrothy jokes and painfully-stupid environments away from “kids” in future titles.

   What you’re saying in this article translates to basically the same thing as what most fans who say “Sonic is for kids” are saying.

   You’re not REALLY advocating for kids, here – you’re advocating for yourself.

   Describing the series as being “kid-friendly” is the only way you know how to word it when you’re talking about the Sonic games you’ve decided to let yourself like.

   Everything you’re saying is all for YOU. You just don’t want other Sonic fans to take away the style of Sonic game that YOU want.

   At least be honest about it. Especially if you’re just going to rehash the same nonsense about Sonic that you read in a lot of other articles on the ‘net.

   1. ^ agreed

   2. ^Same. Thank you for putting this in better words than I ever could. I’m sorry Mr Westgarth, but you strike me as an incredibly arrogant individual who (going by your previous VS articles) seems to act rather condescendingly towards those who think differently to you.

      1. I wouldn’t have said he was arrogant in his previous article. I would have said he has some grossly-off perceptions of the Sonic series. And that he doesn’t think things through very well, when it comes to Sonic. But not arrogant.

         But, now… NOW I would say he’s arrogant. Mostly because of his characterization of kids. And his assumption that just because THAT kid was that way, it means ALL kids are that way.

         Also gotta love how he makes it a point to include how “disinterested” he was in every Sonic game from Sonic 06-Black Knight. Oh, and how he just couldn’t resist making a snarky remark about how SEGA “lost interest in Sonic”.

         How arrogant, presumptuous, and immature can one get? Typical of the hardcore classic fans… and that’s a sad statement, but a sadly true one.

   3. ^
      ^
      ^ This guy gets it.

   4. Someone’s opinion differs from mine, so I’m going to flame them.

      1. What you’re basically saying here is that you agree with the article, and you don’t like it that I don’t.

         So, everything I say that you don’t like, you’re just going to “flaming”.

         Which is also a way of trying to distract from the real topic at hand, here: Sonic games.

         And rather you like it or not, Sonic games are a very controversial series with a lot of varied opinions about them.

         Even some that disagree with yours.

         SEGA are required to make Sonic games for quite a diverse crowd.

         1. It was sarcasm, genius.

      2. Stop trying to be smart

   5. Exactly what I’m thinking, it shouldn’t be exclusively to kids, Sonic should be for all ages.

   6. Congratulations on every one of you missing the point and probably not even really reading the article except through biased lenses desperately seeking half-baked justification to support a conclusion you’d already come to before reading a single word.

      1. Don’t worry, we read the article. We just weren’t convinced by it.

         1. You don’t have to be, but when your objections and counterpoints reference things that weren’t even said, it shows you’re clearly not getting the message.

            1. No, I get the message he’s trying to make just fine.

               It’s just, the message is the same nonsense it usually is when it comes from most people who recite the “Sonic is for kids” line.

               The words, “We aren’t convinced” isn’t the clearest way to convey my point, I suppose.

               I should have said, “We don’t buy it”, instead.

               Yeah. Yeah, I guess I’ll go with that one, then.

      2. For the record: I am referring to this particular comment string, started by Blixt, accusing the author of something he clearly isn’t saying. Disagreeing with the article is fine, and you’re free to do so. But the people *I* am accusing of not really reading the article are the people interpreting and arguing things from it that honestly aren’t there.

         1. It should also be noted that this entire article is written regarding difficulty and complexity, and specifically sets aside the issue of tone, so any disagreements with the article using tone as a factor ARE, in fact, missing the point and trying to start an entirely different argument with someone who’s not even making one.

            1. Except that he does talk about tone in the article.

               So… no.

            2. Tone is the issue he starts off with. It’s right there at the very beginning. (And is followed by proof of his… qurstionable viewpoints on it.)

               Tone, it should be pointed out, also applies to the gameplay. When a game has you killing enemies, sometimes blood goes flying everywhere. Sometimes they just disappear.

               Tone affects graphics. Tone affects music. Tone affects everything.

               It’s a more-than valid discussion point in an article about whether or not Sonic is for kids.

               …An article which doesn’t really do much to explain his point, or go into the issue at any level of depth. But, tone is valuable to the equation, nonetheless.

         2. He mentions it for about half a paragraph and then completely drops the issue without actually making a real point of it.

   7. Thanks for the comment.

      The article was more about the difficulty of Sonic Lost World and the last few Sonic games that were aimed primarily at children. I’m not advocating for anyone, especially not myself, the reason being that I’m not afraid that any fan will take ANYTHING away from future Sonic games. How could they? Sega are clearly doing their own thing and taking the Sonic series in a new direction — if this wasn’t the case then we’d already have Sonic Adventure 3 or Shadow the Hedgehog 2 on our hands.

      Some children may like the cringe-worthy jokes, and so may some adults (including myself), but some don’t. I understand that, and any discussion regarding the perfect tone of a Sonic game that will appeal to older and younger fans is a complicated one — but that’s not the discussion I’m hoping to drum up with this article.

6. I like the sonic franchise mainly due to their unique way of showing balance and potential to almost everything: complex and simple, serious or not, etc. Despite the fact that most Sonic games have been considered mediocre, they show some potential, which is one of the reasons why the sonic franchise was still able to climb up… Most of the games I liked had a serious story and theme, and their concepts are quite intriguing… But then again, something important has to be missing or done wrong… For example, I liked Sonic and the Black Knight because of it’s concept: the medieval era, the knights, the art, etc. But then the gameplay had to be mediocre… Shadow the Hedgehog was to my liking because of the story, the way of branching the story through your choices, and SOMEHOW showing more of Shadow’s unique side, but then they had to make him use guns, no, let me rephrase that, they had to make guns the main gameplay aspect of this game… Sonic Lost World had great gameplay, open environments, and solid themes put into it, but then the story had to be very childish and cheesy, and limit on potential content, like more playable characters and more stuff to do in open environments…

7. We definitely don’t perceive them the same way. I always wondered why it is that Sonic games lately are MORE childish and cartoony and tone than the mega drive series. lol

   And I group Unleashed with Colors, Generations and Lost World. Because they all give off roughly the same vibe to me. The only difference is… Jason Griffith. Not that I care. lol

   I haven’t read the comments yet. Wondering how many people are like “Dude I COMPLETELY agree with this!”. xD

   1. Hm… I think it’s equal from agreeing and disagreeing, but I only skimmed the comments, so I don’t have an accurate number.

   2. I think Unleashed has the perfect tone for the series. Clearly not a perfect game, or even a perfect story (frankly, Sonic Team sucks at those all around), but in terms of maturity tone, I wouldn’t ask for anything more or anything less. Colors, on the other hand, amused me personally, because I loved the dumb jokes and cheeky humor… but it was a definite and measurable step away from that perfect balance.

      Generations has too little narrative to even attempt to judge (which was a shame), and Lost World was garbage on all fronts, continuing the downward spiral.

8. This was a great article. I can relate to it as well. I remember when I beat SA2 the first time. Biolizard was a pain (since I was, like, 5), but when I finally managed to pass it, I beat Finalhazard with relative ease, and the ending was just amazing to me. I think I actually cried a bit too. XD Anyway, while it isn’t the most amazing video game ending to me now, 11 years later, it still holds a special place in my heart, and it’s incredibly nostalgic. The music helps, too. I know Live and Learn is overused nowadays, but it’s the perfect way to end the game, IMO.

   Can’t wait to read your next article.

   1. Thanks for the kind words Aidan, it’s appreciated!

      1. No problem!

9. First off, I enjoyed your article. It actually took me back to the days when I struggled to get through Labyrinth Zone as a little kid. That being said, here’s where we disagree. I don’t think the difficulty is recent games has been an issue. What IS an issue is the tone. Storywise, the games have been trying too hard to be kid friendly, and it is having an adverse effect. Just look at the sales numbers for Lost World. I liked Lost World, but there’s no denying that this “soft reboot” has damaged the series. If you ask me, Unleashed (minus the werehog) is a good blueprint to follow for both story and tone. And what do you know, Unleashed sold over 4 million copies!

   You said: “Do you really wish to take those fandom forming elements away from the younger generation in future Sonic the Hedgehog games?”

   No, of course not. I just want Sega to make Sonic games that will sell so we will still get more Sonic games! A new Adventure title would be a great start. Do you doubt that it would sell more than Lost World. Does ANYONE doubt that it would sell more than Lost World?

   1. So you’re THAT guy, gonna try blaming Lost World’s poor sales on TONE, rather than Wii U exclusivity? lol

      1. But the tone sucks, so it deserves to sell poorly. Nobody wants that shit be opinionated Nintendo fanboys and all around man-children.

         1. I don’t disagree with that, but the sales numbers – with so many other more pertinent factors – are a really weak supporting argument for that statement. Might as well be saying the game sold poorly because it didn’t have guns and hookers. Can’t prove it didn’t.

      2. Sales data is another kettle of fish altogether. Is Sonic Lost World’s “poor” sales down to the Wii U? A poor marketing campaign? A lack of interest from gamers? And so on and so forth.

         Although I encourage the discussion and the support from commenter (be they negative or positive comments) sales data has little to do with this opinion piece.

         Thanks for the support ChaoticFox!

         1. NSMB2 sold the 3DS, which was already a flailing platform.

            Stop putting the blame on the Wii U for why Lost World bombed. One good game is all it takes to rake in customers. Gamecube probably wouldn’t have sold at all without Super Smash Bros. And 360 would’ve submitted defeat to the Wii if not for Minecraft.

   2. Thanks for the comment Mark. I’m glad you enjoyed the article.

      You’ve made some good points and I think that the tone of future Sonic titles is key. Sega have tried it both ways, with more mature games and more light hearted ones. Although it would seem logical to find some sort of middle ground, I’m worried that Sega would spend too much time and money retreading old ground. What I REALLY want to see is a fresh new Sonic game that blows my expectations out of the water. Sonic Lost World wasn’t quite it, but at least Sega tried something new, and I’ll respect any developer for that.

10. ”But to the older Sonic fans worried that Sega is no longer interested in you, ask yourself why you’re a Sonic fan in the first place. Do you really wish to take those fandom forming elements away from the younger generation in future Sonic the Hedgehog games?”

    Problem with your story is kids don’t care about Sonic in the first place and they care even less since Sonic has become childish. There is no hype for kiddy Sonic games and SLW’s sales prove it’s the case. How come a kiddy Sonic game on a kiddy console doesn’t sell well if kids are the main demographic for Sonic games? Heck even Sonic Colors, that was on THE WII, sold less than SA2 on Gamecube. You base your reflexion on a false belief. Besides that, when you make a game you just do the formula that is more profitable; the one that will attract the most potencial players. If Sega wants to ignore the adults they will fail, especially when the gamer’s average age is 30.

    Here’s an article about kid’s habits in VG you might learn something from this:

    http://www.dromble.com/2013/11/11/what-is-nintendos-role-in-the-family-market/

    1. Sonic games were made for kids in the first place. What were most Sonic fans when they played Sonic 1 on the Genesis? They were kids. Sonic has always been for kids. Sonic Lost World is far from a ‘kids game’. Don’t just say that because you’ve never played it and you’re just going by what other people have said.

       1. Sonic is an “everyone” title. And that was the number one goal behind its creation back on the SEGA Genesis: making it appeal to as many people as it could.

          Something which, even now, it largely does. Elsewise, there wouldn’t be all this discussion and arguing about it.
          *
          And your logic here is flawed – not only because there were many more than just kids who played Genesis Sonic…

          …but because the kids that DID play Sonic 1 have all grown up now. And the Sonic series should grow up with them.

          So, no, nothing you’ve said here does anything towards proving how Sonic is supposedly “for kids”.

          And what’s more, nothing you’ve said here presents any good reasons why Sonic should be stupid.
          *
          You’re right that Lost World isn’t really a kids’ game. Because it doesn’t REALLY appeal to kids.

          That still doesn’t change that SEGA were trying to make it a game that is stereotypically supposed to be “for kids”. It has all the traits of being typically dumb “kids’ entertainment”.
          *
          And do that. That thing most retro Sonic fanboys do.

          Where you say, “You ‘obviously’ haven’t played [insert game I’m trying to make a point out of here] because you came to a different conclusion than I did”.

          It’s unattractive. Very close-minded. Black-and-white. And extremely immature.

       2. But kids nowadays don’t play Sonic, so why bother trying to market a game they probably would not care about and buy GTAV instead?
          Besides just because it’s primary target is children does ot mean it is only who they should make the games for. A good example of something made for kids BUT still have universal appeal are any of the animated Disney movies in the 90’s. Made for kids, but everyone knew about them and watched them

11. wasn’t…the story for the classic games were lighter in tone too?? =/
    sonic colors wasn’t even that childish. >.>

    1. The classics aren’t the issue, here – just because Sonic used to be a certain way BACK THEN, that’s no reason for them to be that way NOW.

       But, since you mentioned it… no, actually, the classics weren’t.

       The fans of “light, simple” Sonic games like to use the classics as an excuse for why they claim Sonic should be dumb.

       But the classics were actually kind of dark and depressing. Especially for video games back in the early 90s.
       *
       And Sonic Colors was VERY childish. Painfully so.

       We, as a fanbase, should be outraged that there is even a title in this series with the word “colors” in the title at all. It’s ridiculous.

       The Sonic series shouldn’t go too far in either direction. It shouldn’t be too dark…

       …but it also shouldn’t be too light.
       *
       And when I say, “it shouldn’t be too dark”, that DOESN’T mean that Sonic games shouldn’t have more than one or two dark moments.

       The more retro side of the fanbase has to get used to the fact that Sonic games will sometimes do things they don’t like.

       Nobody’s asking for another Shadow the Hedgehog, here…

       …but a game with a decent, balanced, and sensible plot is a good thing.

       1. Sonic Colors’ childishness came from the ridiculous amount of bad jokes and puns the characters kept spewing in their attempts to sound cool. Same goes for Generations and finally toned down -a little- for Lost World. If we judged these particular games on their gameplay, they’re more refined and complicated than the previous 3D games in the series and NOT childish.

          Of course, it doesn’t help that the scriptwriters for those games aren’t familiar with the Sonic series. -.-

       2. My problem with Colors was… well, I just didn’t find it fun. I thought the lame puns were actually somewhat funny, so that didn’t really detract from anything, but it just seemed so… dull, to me, gameplay-wise. But then again, I have strange opinions, I like Sonic 06 for example. *shrugs*

          1. Yeah, don’t get me wrong. Sonic Colors’ gameplay is pretty terrible, too. It was way too simple and way too linear.

             Liking Sonic 06 isn’t all that strange. As much as the internet likes to throw tempur tantrums about Sonic 06…

             …nobody in the REAL world really cares about any of the things they pretend to care about so much when they’re cruising the comments.

             More often than not, they’re just looking for something to bitch about. That’s what a lot of the whining about Sonic is, actually.

             Just people jumping on a projected bandwagon.

          2. As if any non-classic Sonic game has ever been anything but Linear, rofl. Sonic sections in the Adventure series were equally linear. Every level was practically one big narrow corridor with a couple of 90 degree turns.

       3. “OH DEAR I HATE THIS GAME BECAUSE IT HAS ‘COLORS’ IN THE TITLE! HOLY MOLY!”

          You are an idiot, stop posting here because nothing you say sounds sane or makes any sense. Stop.

          1. Well, sorry you feel that way, but… *shrug* …I guess you’ll just have to deal with it.

          2. I wouldn’t go THAT far. I mean, maybe hating it because Colors is in the name isn’t the best reasoning, but honestly, calling him an idiot is just a bit of an overreaction.

12. I remember when I was a young child, maybe 3-4 years old, and I played my first games. My parents bought a Gamecube for the family the year it came out, I still remember the unwrapping at Christmas. My first game ever was Wind Waker. I remember feeling totally immersed in the game world, exploring every bit of Outset Island that I could, since I was too horrible at the game to go any further than that (I spent perhaps upwards of 10 hours on that single island, trying to get the sword -.-). Well, that just made it more believable to me. I guess easier games would have suited me then.

    Since then, I got back into games (and discovered many new series on the way- Mario and Sonic being the most prominent) and I’ve gotten much better at them. Ironically, my first Sonic game was the 8-bit Sonic the Hedgehog, and I kinda went chronologically from there in the span of about 2 years, so I had a chance to compare them all without nostalgia fogging my view. My conclusion is that I’m not sure how the current Sonic games are any easier besides slightly more linear gameplay, compared to the older ones. Their juvenile nature seems to stem from voice acting, plot, dialogue, etc. Not the actual gameplay. Lost World is actually very challenging (in both good and frustrating ways), as is Generations and the later parts of Colors; I feel that SLW would be extremely difficult to learn and master by new players to the series. That’s one thing I found likable about the Sonic series, that the difficulty stays consistent, without major spikes or drops. They all require practice and some degree of skill to master.

13. Nice article, it felt more earnest than the past ones. There’s a lot of truth in this article, although I’m not sure that most fans are freaking out because the games are “too easy.” You probably know that, though, you’re just simplifying the issue to make a clear point, which is what you’re supposed to do. And you switched out the Comic Sans logo 😀

    1. As you probably guessed, the ease of the games is just one part of a huge discussion about the state of current Sonic games and the fanbase’s reaction to them. So yeah, this article is just one tiny drop in the sea of Sonic discussion.

       Goodnight, Comic Sans, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest…

14. I enjoy the Sonic games neverthelesss. I’m a fan because Sonic and his friends (and enemies) are a full spectrum and just downright cool! No amount of “childishness” will make me hate it, just don’t make them cuss like Shadow did in his game.

    1. So basically you like Sonic only when he is lighthearted?

15. Perhaps Mr. Westgarth would have a point if oh…dunno…if kiddy Sonic ummm….ACTUALLY APPEALED TO CHILDREN!? LOL XD
    I can recall a time when I spoke to a 13 year old kid and he went into minute detail about how hard SLW failed to grab his attention. He said specifically that it did not APPEAL to him. That it is not usually the type of stuff he plays. He listed Devil May Cry, Assassin’s Creed, Skylanders, and one other title that escapes my memory. He even went into great detail about how greatly he hated the DMC reboot and how terribly ruined Dante is now. He disliked Sonic’s attitude in the game, he even said that the parkour, while it is a good idea, was fairly pointless since you wound up in the same place at the end of the level in more or less the same amount of time. He said that the jokes were awful and he had all but forgotten the plot altogether. He even went on to say that he wasn’t all that familiar with the Adventure titles but knew enough to say that he would prefer the Adventure style MANY times over before the SLW formula.

    If Sonic Lost World failed to capture the attention of its target demographic….it makes me wonder why Westgarth would even bother defending the “Sonic is for kids” argument… is it because he cares to force feed children good, wholesome neutered entertainment….or is it more of his desire to keep the Sonic like Lost World because of his own bad taste.

    lol methinks its the latter…

    1. I wonder what he thought of Unleashed-Generations. Lost World is much closer to the Adventure formula than those games. As to your final point, there is truth to Westgarth’s statement, that young children tend to find games more difficult to play.

       As for not appealing to him… well, Sonic never appealed to me until I went back to the very first games from the 90’s (I remember trying out Adventure 2 at a demo shop once, and I wasn’t interested). THEN I worked my way through the series.

    2. “If Sonic Lost World failed to capture the attention of its target demographic….it makes me wonder why Westgarth would even bother defending the “Sonic is for kids” argument… is it because he cares to force feed children good, wholesome neutered entertainment….or is it more of his desire to keep the Sonic like Lost World because of his own bad taste.

       lol methinks its the latter…”

       The same could be said for any Sonic fan that either agrees with him or makes the same arguments.

    3. I’m not saying that Sonic Lost World appeals to children. I’m saying that Sega thinks that Sonic Lost World appeals to children. I personally hope it does, but I don’t know for sure.

16. Solution: Difficulty settings

    1. It’s a completely different game, but Bayonetta had a range of difficulty settings that ensured that the game could be enjoyed by players of all skill levels from the adept to the novices. Adding something SIMILAR to a Sonic game wouldn’t be such a bad idea.

       Cool idea Jmack.

17. Also, this for some reason gave me a really gigantic longing for an Advance series re-release

18. Sonic Adventure is in no one mature, like what the fuck. (EDIT – Inflammatory)

    1. You must be talking about Sonic RUSH Adventure, because Sonic Adventure 1 and Sonic Adventure 2 are far more mature than these recent “joke” games (ie: Colors, Generations and Lost World).

       By the way, autism is a disorder, not an insult.

       1. Sonic Rush Adventure was also as mature as the Adventure games and nowhere was it a “joke” game like Lost World.

          1. I haven’t played Rush Adventure yet. Is it better than Sonic Rush?

19. As a fan in who’s 30 now, the new attitude and direction bothers me. There’s no reason they can’t aim for both demographics. Adventure Time does it successfully, if they tried hard enough, the can too.

20. This is a strange issue for me, and I’ve got a lot of fluxuating and conflicting viewpoints muddling my opinion.

    I WANT to say that Sonic is for kids, and I personally LOVE cheesy pun-spewing lighthearted AoStH Sonic… but at the same time, I agree with people saying that the current direction of the series really ISN’T really resonating with kids (and I’m not gonna try to use Lost World’s sales figures to justify that point, because that’s just stupid). It’s got the lighthearted tone that some of us classic fans crave, but it’s missing the “cool, edgy, raw excitement” that pretty much everything from the 90s tried to win kids over with.

    Current Sonic, for whatever reason, lacks that same universal appeal he had back in his prime. I don’t think it’s that the series lacks maturity, “dark moments”, additional characters, or anything like that… I think it’s more that Sonic was a product of the 90s, and was made and marketed to represent what was cool back then. It becomes quite a challenge figuring out how to market that a dramatically different demographic without changing the character entirely (Shadow the Hedgehog says hi from Hot Topic).

    The older Sonic fans have all grown up, each with an era of beloved Sonic games featuring wildly different styles/tones/voice actors etc. Many of the OG classic fans prefer cheeky Blue Skies Sonic, as our fond memories of the character are likely intertwined with the cartoons of that generation. Second gen fans have Sonic and a more involved storyline that left the character less open to interpretation, and suffered from supplemental material like the Archie comics making awkward attempts to blend its own canon with content from the more story/character-driven games.

    I don’t disagree that Sonic’s primary demo should still be kids, but I do believe it should be done without being so blatantly condescending the way most media targeted toward children has become. Truthfully, appealing to children without treating them like they’re brain-dead ADHD-riddled little vermin is really all it takes to win over the “everyone audience”. The real question is: can Sonic as a character, still appeal to kids without losing his 90s identity?

    Personally, I’m hoping that in the future, Sega gets some competent writers and puts together an actually engaging story… it doesn’t have to be fucking dark or mature, it just needs to be more than a paragraph worth of material milked into a handful of cutscenes. If they can do that without also treating their target demo like they’re drooling inbreds, I think everything will work itself out.

    What Sonic needs more than an identity change is some consistency with genuinely good games. As the article states, I don’t believe the games need to be more challenging (I don’t even think us older fans want or need that), they just need to be bigger, LONGER, and more involving. A simplistic four hour platformer with a paper-thin plot isn’t gonna really resonate with anybody, regardless of tone.

    1. I have to agree with most of this. I think the games are difficult enough. Though, maybe it’s just because my first Sonic was Sonic Adventure, I found the Classics to be rather difficult. Mainly just the 0 ring final bosses. I’m glad the new Sonic games don’t have that.

       Anyway, I’d love a bigger, longer Sonic game as well. Like, Zelda/Kingdom Hearts kind of long would be really cool, IMO.

21. “But to the older Sonic fans worried that Sega is no longer interested in you, ask yourself why you’re a Sonic fan in the first place.”
    I thought Sonic was a cool character.

    “Do you really wish to take those fandom forming elements away from the younger generation in future Sonic the Hedgehog games?”
    I don’t, but you and many others seem to want to buy constantly spitting propaganda about him being for kids when even if he was made for kids, it didn’t mean his games had to be childish, which they never were.

    1. Thanks for the comment and for taking the time to read my article. I’m glad you enjoyed it.

       I must say though, I wouldn’t personally go as far as to suggest that Sega and the worldwide media are conspiring to push the idea of Sonic being for children down our throats via some sort of propaganda campaign. Or at least, if there IS a conspiracy, I’m not aware of it and I’m certainly not part of it!

22. See, the problem with this whole “Sonic is for kids thing” is that kids don’t like the kinds of Sonic games SEGA are putting out, recently. Even an average nine-year-old gamer can see how ridiculous they’ve gotten. And Lost World was just… ugh.

    Kids aren’t from another planet. They’re not too stupid to understand concepts like quality and peers. They know that recent Sonic games are almost completely and totally without merit. They also know that very few people their age actually play them. Most kids play M-rated games, these days…

    Sonic should not EVER become M-rated. But it was more than fine when it was pushing the boundaries of the E10+ rating. It made it unique – something that could be played not only by kids, but also by people who don’t like sunshine and rainbows but are also sick of the over-saturation of M-rated games on today’s market.

    The real answer to the problem is as simple as the way it’s handled. Anything that is handled the way most Sonic games – be they too light or too dark – have been handled is going to come into question. What SEGA need to do is start putting more time and attention into an overtone that is well-written, involving, uses its characters well, and consistent. It should be dark… but it should also have WELL-TIMED AND INTELLIGENT comedy, as well.

    It’s not that hard, folks. A lot of stories in video games these days have them.

    And again: get rid of Ken Pontac. And Warren Gaff, if he’s still there.

    1. “It’s not that hard, folks. A lot of stories in video games these days have them.”
       It isn’t hard, just look at this:
       

       Also, keep in mind that the main group of games and fanboys that follow this concept are all under Nintendo. Just sayin’, I’d bet rings that the guy writing these articles is a Nintendo fan, and the people who agree with him.

       1. I most definitely am a Nintendo fan. Thanks for commenting!

    2. Avatar the Last Air bender did it perfectly, but that isn’t a video game so perhaps it was easier, but they certainly got the important stuff down when it comes to mixing comedy and seriousness.

       1. Last Airbender? Well… sort of.

          The problem with Last Airbender is that it’s an anime. We want Sonic to be serious to a greater point, but we don’t want it to be an anime.

          Animes usually have a problem with…

          *…unlikeable characters.
          *…terrible voices.
          *…even worse dialogue.
          *…bad senses of humor.
          *…predictable, pretentious, and cliche.

          And because of those things, they are neither funny nor can they be taken seriously.

          Last Airbender is a lot better than Sonic Colors. And much better than Lost World was, perhaps.

          But, we don’t want Sonic to be an anime. We want it to be more respectable than that.

          It will appeal to a wider crowd if it’s not anime. And if it’s not anime, it will also fix many of the complaints from previous Sonic games.

          1. That’s quite interesting actually; I never thought of it that way. Well, in order to reach that level of story-telling, SEGA would need to hire some very expensive writers which I’m sure they currently feel they don’t have the resources for.

             1. I don’t think they need to hire big name writers or anything extreme like that. Although, they DO need to get rid of the Happy Tree Friends people.

                They just need to write better plots, and refine their techniques. It’s not that hard – the majority of video games these days have REALLY great plots.

                But most of those really great plots are still written by only one or two people. It just takes some good sense and graceful presentation.

23. Face it, we can beat around the bush as much as we like with excuses or theories, but the video game connoisseurs who review Sonic games lowly as of late are in agreement that the series is in a downturn. No reason to put lipstick on a pig to cover up what it is because at the end of the day, it is still a pig–or rather this hedgehog is just hog quality nowadays.

    One of the only things keeping the series alive and kickin’ are these wretched the pay to plays that lack any depth to them or real creative effort to them, even compared to its competitors. Rayman Jungle Run, for one, is a much more well-rounded, varied, enjoyable experience than the repetitive Sonic Dash mumbo jumbo that Sega has been milking for what it’s worth, and other comparisons have been made, by others in just the infinitive runner category.

    Sega needs to come to grips with themselves and ask, “Do we want to make quality games that stand for something or just try wingin’ it time and again just because of brand recognition and blind fan-boy and -girl loyalty?” They can make as many promises and claims about rebooting and going back to the roots to the nth power of hype, but it is not going to make a flippin’ chopper badnik difference if they keep repeatedly not delivering what they said they would.

    I initially liked this feature but this is so much the opposite of “a no-spin zone” (granted, spin is good, but this is worse than a category 5 hurricane) that even Sonic would get dizzy from the lack of proper logic and meaningless fishing for user responses. Facts are facts, fans are tired of the stench of hedgehog manure, and the critics picked up on this awful smell long before them yet few want to take their word for it. Let’s talk answers, answers that bring change, not two-bit rhetoric meant to get a users replying here for more immature drama.

    1. *EDITED FOR CLARITY*
       Face it, we can beat around the bush as much as we like with excuses or theories, but the video game connoisseurs who review Sonic games lowly as of late are in agreement that the series is in a downturn. No reason to put lipstick on a pig to cover up what it is because at the end of the day, it is still a pig–or rather this hedgehog is just hog quality nowadays.

       One of the only things keeping the series alive and kickin’ are these wretched pay to plays that lack any depth to them or real creative effort to them, even compared to Sega’s competitors. Rayman Jungle Run, for one, is a much more well-rounded, varied, enjoyable experience than the repetitive Sonic Dash mumbo jumbo that Sega has been milking for what it’s worth, and other comparisons have been made by others in just the infinite runner category.

       Sega needs to come to grips with themselves and ask, “Do we want to make quality games that stand for something or just try wingin’ it time and again just because of brand recognition and blind fan-boy and -girl loyalty?” They can make as many promises and claims about rebooting and going back to the roots to the nth power of hype, but it is not going to make a flippin’ chopper badnik difference if they keep repeatedly not delivering what they said they would.

       I initially liked this feature but it is now so much the opposite of “a no-spin zone” (granted, spin is good, but this is worse than a category 5 hurricane) that even Sonic would get dizzy from the lack of proper logic and meaningless fishing for user responses. Facts are facts, fans are tired of the stench of hedgehog manure, and the critics picked up on this awful smell long before them yet few want to take their word for it. Let’s talk answers, answers that bring change, not two-bit rhetoric meant to get users replying here for more immature drama.

       1. Some incorrect assumptions made in this article:
          1) Myth: A children’s game (or, by extension, any form of media) cannot meet the satisfaction of adults.

          Fact: This is blatantly ignoring Toy Story, Shrek, Rayman, and many more franchises. The truth be told, a good work of art is layered meaning that it can be enjoyed at different levels of understanding and from different view points. In other words, an old age group can find richer meaning and larger overall dynamics in it while someone with less experience like a child can still have surprises and smiles all along the way. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did this well. Sonic ’06 focused too much on the older age groups and, even then, missed what the older audience was wanting. Sonic Lost World tried to flatten the depth aspect in an attempt to appeal to children, but, from many critic’s views, got so flat and boring that even Mario’s simple world had much more dimension to it.

          2) Myth: The problem with Sonic games in the modern era has been audience focus, not overall content quality.

          Fact: The critics time and again have told us this is not the case. We can look back to Lost World and see another drop in critical reception worse in many cases compared to Sonic ’06. Saying that the intended audience had an influence in this is indeed possible, because we could speculate on and on.

          We could wager that the game design in ’06, a turning point in the series, was patterned after teenage styles and fads and further say that in Lost Worlds, the radical return to children design. In both scenarios, we could guess by saying that by trying something like this without current experience in either was the major flaw behind their failures, but we have no evidence or proof to back these claims.

          Furthermore, the fact that Sonic Colors was a children’s game and much more warmly received easily disproves half of the paradigm of this theory, which would leave this theory to merely the argument that Sega trying to make Sonic apply to older audiences without enough experience leads to game design issues.

          However, the existence of Sonic Adventure 2, which also sought to appeal to teens with stronger pop culture in things like the level map and design, music titling, lyrics and composition, and story tone, which was praised by users and critics alike, leaves this theory with no leg to stand on.

          Now, having properly dispensed with these misconceptions, the actual problem at hand is in consistency and quality control. I have to yet to connect all the dots in this subject, but some good starting points for you as journalist would be to check the history of changes in team organization, budgeting, partner interactions and deadlines. It would be my best educated guess from previous readings on the “Sonic cycle” theories is that a combination of these are at play but how and in what ways they are would be the fun story to uncover through researching these points. Sorry for being a bit harsh and nasty in my reply, but I know for a fact that when kids (and critics) don’t like this game, it isn’t just me having an adult gamer moment.

       2. Some incorrect assumptions made in this article:
          1) Myth: A children’s game (or, by extension, any form of media) cannot meet the satisfaction of adults.

          Fact: This is blatantly ignoring Toy Story, Shrek, Rayman, and many more franchises. The truth be told, a good work of art is layered meaning that it can be enjoyed at different levels of understanding and from different view points. In other words, an old age group can find richer meaning and larger overall dynamics in it while someone with less experience like a child can still have surprises and smiles all along the way. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did this well. Sonic ’06 focused too much on the older age groups and, even then, missed what the older audience was wanting. Sonic Lost World tried to flatten the depth aspect in an attempt to appeal to children, but, from many critic’s views, got so flat and boring that even Mario’s simple world had much more dimension to it.

          2) Myth: The problem with Sonic games in the modern era has been audience focus, not overall content quality.

          Fact: The critics time and again have told us this is not the case. We can look back to Lost World and see another drop in critical reception worse in many cases even compared to Sonic ’06. Saying that the intended audience had an influence in this is indeed possible, but we could speculate on and on about it.

          We could wager that the game design in ’06, a turning point in the series, was patterned after teenage styles and fads and further say that Lost Worlds was the radical return to children design. In both scenarios, we could guess by saying that in trying something like this without current experience in either area, younger children or older teenager games, was the major flaw behind their failures, but we have no evidence or proof to back these claims.

          Furthermore, the fact that Sonic Colors was a children’s game and much more warmly received easily disproves half of the paradigm of this theory in looking at Lost Worlds which would leave this theory to merely the argument that Sega trying to make Sonic apply to older audiences without enough experience leads to game design issues.

          However, the existence of Sonic Adventure 2, which also sought to appeal to teens with stronger pop culture overtones in things like the level map and design, music titling, lyrics and composition, and story tone, which was praised by users and critics alike, leaves this theory with no leg to stand on.

          Now, having properly dispensed with these misconceptions, the actual problem at hand is in consistency and quality control. I have to yet to connect all the dots in this subject, but some good starting points for you as journalist would be to check the history of changes in team organization, budgeting, partner interactions and deadlines. It would be my best educated guess from previous readings on the “Sonic cycle” theories is that a combination of these are at play but how and in what ways they are would be the fun story to uncover through researching these points. Sorry for being a bit harsh and nasty in my reply, but I know for a fact that when kids (and critics) don’t like this game, it isn’t just me having an adult gamer moment.

24. Wow, this felt even more forced and worse argumented than your past articles, I know believe you’re just seeking for controversial topics to get as much attention as you can…

25. >But to the older Sonic fans worried that Sega is no longer interested in you, ask yourself why you’re a Sonic fan in the first place.
    I was raised with TMNT’87, Darkwing Duck etc. shows, and Sword Master, Dream Master, Darkwing Duck, Shatterhand, Battletoads/BDD NES games. Games were in b\w due to TV standard not fitting.
    When I was, like, 10-12, I saw classic Sonic game screenshots, I thought they are for girls, with bright colors and silly looking animal characters.
    Later, in 2005, TMNT’87 was still the coolest thing ever for me, until I accidentally saw Sonic X ep.12. “Wow!”-I thought-“This is just as cool as first TMNT show!”
    And this made me a fan.
    So, Mr. Westgarth, present first TMNT show to this young fellow.

    1. Oh wait, I’m not an older.

26. “But to the older Sonic fans worried that Sega is no longer interested in you, ask yourself why you’re a Sonic fan in the first place.”

    Lol are you really serious man -_-?

    1. Yes, I wasn’t going to mention that. But since you did (and I’m glad you did), I can say that if I stop to ask myself why I’m a Sonic fan…

       …the answer to that question certainly is NOT: “Because I want to sit by and watch SEGA mock the franchise with bad jokes and horrible overtones.”
       *
       A Sonic fan is anyone who likes Sonic. In any way, shape, and/or form.

       That includes things that are aimed at older audiences – including things that are aimed at older audiences that are criticized.

       I am an older Sonic fan because I am older.

       And I like Sonic in several ways, shapes, and/or forms.

       Including some ways, shapes, and/or forms that are criticized.

       Period. Case closed.

27. This is such an easy fix, and it’s mind boggling that nobody high up can figure this out. The idea of appealing to everybody can be a difficult one yes, but saying that Sonic is a “kids game” is a cop out to me. It takes less effort to appeal to one audience than trying to appeal to a wide range of people, but the trade off hurts the developers wallets. Take a good look at Rayman. It can easily be written off as a kids game at first glance, but the difficulty of the game says otherwise. There’s multiple tones and a themes, not only for the story (which doesn’t constantly interrupt your game might I add), but each individual level contains multiple themes and tones which makes the game multi layered (which can be a factor that appeals to a wide range of people)…something Sonic games used to do. The levels themselves told a story (or were set up in a way to let you interpret that for yourself) instead now the game is all one tone with one dimensional levels.

    1. You have the right idea… but Sonic can do SOOO much better than Rayman does.

       1. You’re absolutely right!!! Sonic holds so much more weight than Rayman. Sonic had and still has the potential to stand vastly apart from the competition…but instead, at the moment, the developers want him to be Mario, and a not good one at that.

28. People keep forgetting that the first game was as childish as Lost World is. A fat evil mustached scientist tried to encapsulate cute little animals into robots which you have to set free and encounters you with silly boss battles running trough colorful and cute levels. How is Sonic 1 not childish? Sonic was supposed to be aimed towards young audiences, much like Pokemon. Nobody complains about how silly, childish, and easy a Pokemon game is, they just enjoy the game. We think a game is hard and challenging because we played most of them when we were young, I finished Sonic Adventure 2 ONCE at a friend, and did not had the chance to ever play it again until it came on Steam, I though Sonic Adventure 2 was hard when I played it at the age of 12, but guess what? It was so easy when I played it on Steam, because I’ve already gotten used to how Sonic works and what to expect and not from it. People might find Sonic Lost world bad. Heck, I’ve even seen blind playthroughs of Sonic Lost World played by people not that familiar with Sonic Lost World and they died quite a lot, not in the first level, but in the second, third and so on. Sonic Lost World seems easy to us because we already are experienced with how Sonic works. I introduced my girlfriend to Sonic Generations. She keep dying, over and over until I showed her some tricks, and the same happened in Sonic Lost World. She is 21, and she already has some experience in lots of games even platformers like Rayman and Spyro, but was just not used to Sonic. Sonic games’ difficulties are good how they are, they are perfect for newcomers who want to adapt to the series without getting frustrated because they can’t pass the second world, or even to the platforming genre itself.

    1. You do know that at the time Mario was a “household” juggernaut right? Why then would you create a character that only appeals to kids when your competition dominates the entire video game market? You forget (or don’t know) that kids weren’t the only ones playing video games back then, nor were they the dominant spectrum. As I said before, Sonic may have come across as just a “kids game” at first glance, but the difficulty and the learning curve said otherwise. Two reasons I believe your statement is flawed is because #1. The control scheme on Sonic games have become increasingly complicated and imprecise, so it’s more about getting used to the controls rather than getting used to the “difficulty” of the game. #2. I believe the games nowadays are easier not because we’re accustomed to Sonic games, but because they’re actually EASIER! Just to give you a quick example: (Final Zone and Death Egg Zone in Sonic 2 required you to beat those bosses with NO rings! While newer games like Sonic Colors (which I love btw) or Sonic Generations toss rings at you everytime you hit the boss. Yeah I’m not buying what you’re selling dude. I’m a seasoned gamer (especially when it comes to Sonic) yet games like the Sonic Advance series are still difficult.

29. I get what your saying but I think you’re missing something. The Sonic series is a series rated E for EVERYONE, which means there should be things that can appeal to all audiences, both young and old. But that’s not happening because the new games are lacking any real substance in both content, presentation, and gameplay, not all but most. What makes the Sonic Adventure games so special is that they can actually appeal to everyone.

    I first played Sonic Adventure when I was about 6 years old, and what appealed to me as a kid was the rocking soundtrack, the fun fast paced levels, and that blue dude with the tude’ who was always fun to root for. But as I got older I began to see more and more of what made this game good, like the kinda of struggles the characters went through (Tails becoming more independent, Knuckles learning about his people, Gamma discovering the truth about himself) as well as how well most of the game is structured and little attentions to detail that I didn’t notice as a child.

    I guarantee you if a kid were to play, say Sonic Lost World, when he got older, would it still appeal to him? Probably not, beyond the non-humor, and the Mario graphics, there isn’t much he’d want to go back for it for.

    It’s because Sonic tries to appeal than more than just kids that makes him special, because we can be able to appreciate him beyond just childhood nostalgia.

    Also Maturation isn’t the problem. Sonic Adventure 2 had it’s dark moments but it was all in context and most of it made sense. As oppose to Shadow which had him firing guns at people and it had heavy metal and Aliens and riding motorcycles. None of that really made sense and it just felt like an excuse to be a macho-manly testosterone fest with no real value. As if suddenly Michael bay was directing the series.

    1. I hear this “E for Everyone” argument a lot. I’d just like to point out that ESRB classifications are based on the content of the game and not the tone, or who the game is actually aimed for.

       Furthermore, ESRB only covers games sold in America, not the rest of the world, including Japan. So the “E” on Sonic Lost World isn’t indicative of anything other than the game’s lack of mature content.

       Thanks for commenting!

30. Meh, another Sonic fan complaining about the other Sonic fans complaining about the games he like.

    Nothing new here.

    The E for everyone means everyone can play it, not that everyone will enjoy it, and sadly, since unleashed I’ve stopped enjoying Sonic games.

    I got into the Sonic games when I was a kid for the fun gameplay, as a teen it was the combo of gameplay and story that hooked me, then the games crashed after unleashed in a rather messy way. The story became less important, gameplay was dumped down to the point where a game would almost play itself and fun became tacky jokes.

    And now we have a game that tries to be a Sonic game in name only if the reviews are to be believed. I’d love to try this game out, but Eshop ain’t working for me and the games isn’t for sale in my nation. (I’m still looking, but the Wii U version never saw light, but I heard rumors about the 3DS version showing up recently in a handful of stores.)

31. Pingback: Sonic fandom, pat yourselves on the back. | Conflicting Views

32. Now this is a great article, and I actually understood everything about it this time! I appreciate you speaking your mind about this subject Michael. I agree with it all. My first video games were actually all SpongeBob related games for the GBA SP because I was such a fan of the Sponge at the time. The feeling I get when I replay the games for nostalgia connects with what you are explaining here so to that I say Thank You for putting together the puzzle pieces for me. 😉

    1. Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed the article!

       1. You’re welcome. 🙂

33. Is that an AoStH screencap from the Not Another Sonic Blog on Tumblr I see?

    1. I get all my images from the Awkward Sonic Photos Tumblr. That being said, it’s very likely that the image originated from Not Another Sonic Blog. Nice catch, and thanks for the comment!

       1. Yeah, well I run that blog so I’m pretty familiar with it. xD

          On the subject of your article, I do feel that were not entirely clear on what your point was. Were you referring to Sonic games being kid friendly in terms of story and tone or in terms of gameplay?

          While I’m personally ambivalent towards the story and tone of the Sonic games I would say I found Unleashed/Heroes to be a pretty good ‘middle-ground’ in terms of tone.

          The real problem I have with the more story-heavy Sonic games is not just their average plotlines but also their complete lack of any real world building and continuity (you addressed this in your previous article). As such it is difficult to really engage with Sonic’s universe.

          1. For the most part the article is about seeing a game I thought was easy through the eyes of a child who found it incredibly hard. I’m trying to veer away from a discussion about tone and story and focus more on the difficultly.

             But I understand what you mean. I’m personally more found of the more original and offbeat Sonic world from the original few games/ Heroes/ the various cartoon and comics than the “real world” settings of the two Adventure games.

             Even so, I wouldn’t be opposed to a more story-orientated experience set within Sonic’s own world. My only fear is that Sega/ Sonic Team are incapable of maintaining even the most basic overarching continuity.

             What I’d like to see if more of what has been done with Ratchet & Clank which has a robust continuity, but is still accessible to new comers at any point along it.

             Thanks again for the comment, and for extracting chuckles from me with your Tumblr.

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