Reasonable Assessment: The Green Hill Problem

77 Comments

1. *thumbs-up*

2. I say keep Green Hill around all the time for these things. It’s too iconic NOT to use it.

3. Who said that’s Green Hill?

   1. Pretty much they did.

   2. Sega at the unveiling.

4. Everyone needs to stop complaining about the new green hill zone in Sonic Forces and just deal with we got so far in the game. Nobody doesn’t understand the fan base at all. Besides, Green Hill Zone is part of the franchise that people love for 15th Years. So, what’s the problem with that?. I’m not complaining about it.

   1. Too bad. I’m complaining about it. I envy your tolerance, but as someone who was never a big fan of Green Hill (I was spoiled by Emerald Hill first) to begin with, I’ve grown to loathe the local over the last few years. It’s not something I’ve loved about Sonic for 15 years, it’s something I’ve tolerated for 15 years, and I’m pretty much at my limit.

   2. “Everyone needs to like the things I like!”

      Pretty what I got out of your comment. I’m okay with Green Hill here too but I do think there’s a reason why people are complaining about this. Even if it’s an iconic level, there’s such a thing as too much of something. Repeating the same levels or even making them similar to said levels is going to make people sick of it.

      I remember how sick I got of Sega reusing Seaside Hill so much in their All-star games or even just Sonic Heroes stuff in general when there existed far more than just that game.

      Green Hill and similar looking levels to it have been used so much over the years that it makes sense for people to groan when they see the level again in Sonic Forces, especially when it looks similar to the one in Sonic Generations, making it seem like they’re just recycling at this point.

      To put it in more simple terms, it’s like your favorite food for dinner. You like eating it but have it every single night without anything different and you’re going to get sick of it.

      Nostalgia for iconic levels is fine but remember, nostalgia is not always a good thing, especially when it’s not used in moderation like what Sega is doing with Green Hill.

   3. @SONICGALAXY27: “So, what’s the problem with that?”

      Great! I’m glad you asked that. I just finished writing an article explaining why. I’ll give you the link to it right now:

      http://www.tssznews.com/2017/04/21/reasonable-assessment-the-green-hill-problem

      1. i have no problem with the green hill zone. people just making a big deal out of it noah.

   4. Like Noah, I express gratitude for all the wonderful things lie ahead in Sonic Forces. But just like dumping a gallon of maple syrup on top of your morning breakfast’s stack of pancakes is an awful idea, Green Hill Zone has ceased to be a delightfully unexpected and cherished novelty and now is excessively overdone–seemingly to cash out on nostalgia. Clever, intricate game making is all about poise, scope and balance. Green Hill Zone is like that commodity on the stock market that has reached an all-time low because there is an all-time surplus.

      1. I have no problem with it. people making a big deal out of it.

5. Well said man, it’s been the one thing that’s bugged the hell out of me with Classic Sonic’s inclusion. It also hurts even more since they have a new character in the form of our mystery character here where they could just have it between those two for our different gameplay styles without having to bring out Classic just to appease everyone that played Generations. Classic and Modern can stand on their own perfectly fine, and it’s not like Classic should never appear in alongside Modern in a game, but so soon after Generations and when Classic is already getting his own game just feels unneeded.

   1. Yup. It’s just simply too soon.

6. Honestly, I don’t think anyone is wrong for disliking it. Its just not an issue for me. I see GHZ as becoming a staple or a running theme that ties Sonic’s adventures around a starting point I guess you could call home. A lot of the games take place in South Island even when not showing Green Hill.

   But I’m just super indifferent to it and dont really care. Yeah classic Sonic and ghz won’t have the impact Generations had but I still find it interesting kinda BECAUSE I don’t know their excuse is for doing it a second time. XD

   1. I’m glad that even though you disagree, you are able to understand where I’m coming from. Props to you, captain.

7. To be fair… Seaside Hill is very different from Green Hill

   Seaside Hill has ancient water temples and killer whales

   Green Hill has palm trees and totems

   Very different indeed…
   

   1. This is very true! Seaside Hill did absolutely try to differentiate itself. By itself, it is fine. Unfortunately, in the context of all the other zones that reuse some sort of Green Hill aesthetic, it gets unfairly dragged down with all the lame zones. Also add to the fact that Seaside Hill itself was reused a lot in games like Sonic Dash and All Stars Racing.

      But I definitely agree. Heroes was in 2003, and the GHZ abuse only got worse over time.

8. It’s okay to have a green hill 1st level, but they still need to make new levels from that point onward. It’s iconic.

9. This fanbase is so numb to bad gameplay that they’d rather dwell on aesthetics and story tone than anything related to the game itself.

   It’s astounding to me that there’s an entirely article written about this, but none about the director of Lost World coming back, or Wisps coming back, and only a single paragraph asking why Modern Sonic doesn’t work on its own.

   And in case you’re wondering what the reason is, it’s because there’s no feasible way to break up the pacing of Modern Sonic and stretch the gameplay to at least 10 hours without either piling on missions, acts and hundreds of miles of unique levels, or adding a supplementary element like Classic Sonic.

10. Why not just state the obvious: Sonic Team sucks now
    Why does Sonic Team suck now? Because they aren’t Sonic Team Classic (who were responsible for the excellent games of yore). They are Modern Sonic Team who can make pretty graphics and have good sound design but suck at everything else.

    If I had to place a specific point when this shift happened, I would say during Sonic Heroes’ development. The horror story that Iizuka told about being the only person on the team to do the level design shows just how far things have fallen.

    1. “Why not just state the obvious: Sonic Team sucks now”

       Well, because that’s been stated every week since 2005. I’m trying to be specific here and address particular problems, not make grand sweeping statements. Does that make sense?

       1. Too be frank, no. Unless Modern Sonic Team gets some talented designers in their stable, it doesn’t matter what they do because what we are getting is the best they can do.

    2. “Why not just state the obvious: Sonic Team sucks now”

       Because one, it’s not obvious (at least not anymore) and two, they’ve made good games that people will argue being the case.

11. Careful with the wording in “Why can’t modern sonic stand on his own?” We don’t want anyone one who might have english as a 2nd or 3rd language to interpret that as meaning we only want modern sonic exclusively as the only playable character again. It’s taken 9 years for the team to finally allow someone other than sonic to be playable. Given one of the other 2 playable characters is also sonic, lol, at least there’s this brand new character who isn’t yet another version of sonic. I think what we want is Modern Tails and Modern Knuckles playable again right? I hope majority of the fanbase can get on board with modern tails and knuckles so that we have something to unite with. Simply saying “We want other playable characters” is a little too broad. We should be specific we or could end up with a playable silver and sticks or something.

    1. Yeah. Basically, I’m saying that I just want a pure 3D game with modern characters. Having tails and knuclkes would be cool, but heck, at this point I’d be happy with a fully 3D Modern Sonic game. But I feel ya

    2. I bet a bunch of people do want Modern Tails and Knuckles playable again, so long as they aren’t mech shooting or treasure hunting. But there are more characters to the just those two people would like to play as. Shadow has a huge support group, and there are still people asking for characters like Amy, Metal Sonic, Silver and Rouge.
       Note that people are specific. Whenever you see fans asking for Silver as playable they usually say they want him faster. And Sticks? I don’t know if many people want her, but her gameplay was alright so there should not be a problem with her returning.

       I want to see Shadow playable again, or maybe that faster Silver, because Tails and Knuckles were already playable in Sonic Boom : Fire and Ice and will be in Mania.

       I must not suffer from the same effects as others regarding Green Hill Zone. While I’m not overjoyed to see it, I am not against seeing it either. I’ve practically accepted it as a staple level.

       1. But you have to understand that the industry has negative feelings towards silver and even shadow though not as bad as silver, but still pretty bad. Games like shadow the hedgehog really left a bad taste in the gaming media’s mouth and so a playable shadow would be more likely to reveal people’s bias towards the character rather than spice up the game as intended. (Personally, i’m all for a playable shadow if done right.)
          If i’ve learned anything since Forces’ reveal, it’s that rumors and “popular opinion” spread like wildfire on the internet in modern times. One statement from IGN or Gamespot could snowball into many youtubers following the trend since it’s trendy among gaming media to dislike sonic’s post classic games. We the sonic community seem to live in a vacuum where the most bizarre opinions and characters have a voice and get some time in the spotlight, while in the regular gaming world, the very mention of the name silver the hedgehog gets laughs and immediate jokes about 06 and sonic boom or werehogs are always soon to follow.
          Really the only way to establish the brand again among both the sonic fanbase and the rest of the industry is to keep it simple with the character roster and ease into the expanded cast over time after several quality games. From that perspective, i understand what sonic team is attempting with Not Green Hill Zone, but keeping the appeal unsaturated doesn’t mean to not put in effort both creatively and scope. Mania has showed us that creativity is one of the tentpoles still able to hold this franchise up, so coming up with new stages and creative, more classic inspired characters is all within the ballpark of what sonic team should do. Dashpads and Not Green Hill Zone are making us question the quality and effort being put in, but one thing is for sure and that’s that reminding people of ShTH, 06, and Boom, Is very much off the to do list right now.

12. Personally i’m concerned with Green hill again too, but not as much as what they have in mind for this new character. I’m just hoping we don’t end up with another werehog type of situation where the gameplay doesn’t make sense for a sonic game. There were shouts of joy when tails and knuckles were revealed with sonic mania and i just really hope the message was made clear to sonic team, that gameplay that is basically sonic, but slightly different, is what is desired and has made the most sense.
    The questions i have are: How sonic inspired is the new character’s gameplay? Are they fast? Athletic? Can they curl into a ball or do something else to hurt enemies? Can they hurt enemies? Maybe it’s a stealth character who collects rings, but one hit instantly kills them. Idk, i’d play it.
    Lastly, What does this new playable character mean for the future of tails and knuckles? Has sonic team given up on interpreting them into modern gameplay? Or is the new character a step in the direction of visiting the ol trinity again in future games if forces is successful? How much importance will be placed on physics? Will they give up on physics and throw a bunch of dash pads and custom springs everywhere like right before loop de loops?
    These things are more concerning than the return of totally not green hill zone and i’m just hoping and praying for the right answers to these questions come E3.

13. I’m not disappointed by greenhill, but by how lame this looks.

    1. Yeah – really hoping this is some kind of base-level beta build or something, because this doesn’t even have as much going for it as the Generations version.

       If you’re gonna GHZ me, you’d better step up your game and do something impressive with it.

       1. “If you’re gonna GHZ me, you’d better step up your game and do something impressive with it.”

          Absolutely. Here’s to hoping there will be something more.

14. I am wondering if Mario fans have this issue. And seriously since when did you guys count hand held and spin offs? .ok I got to say this the only reason this green hill complaint started is because a certain few on a website kept complain how “FAN” games kept using the same grassy “green hill” type look. Then that argument just trickled down to official games.but if you really think about it green hill has been officially use TWICE! Sonic 1(1990) sonic generations (2013) I don’t know about you but that is a long time between its first use and its second use.now second use yo now which is forces ok yea small gap but still not to be starting this ugh green hill again nonsense, seriously this need to stop.Now if you wanted to complain it should be ” why is sonic team always making levels similar to green hill” that makes way more sense then ” green hill over use” its not accurate as green hill itself not uses only its style(checkered ground) is. I am sorry but this complaint has no grounds to me as people making it sound like they do it every iteration. This all started with one little nitpick and spiral out of control. Whether you count spin offs or not the use of green hill is not the problem but the aesthetics is which is funny because only for sonic that is a complaint never is for other franchises.its like people have this sadistic attitude towards sonic or something. You tired of green hill recently? What do you honestly expect when a franchise that reaching an anniversary going to advertise? Its the first level it is the most iconic (negative or positve still got people talking).

    1. Green hill needs to be put away to wow us again. But isn’t that what they have did ? If you talking about green hill itself then only generations to forces its been pretty recent but that all depends if you consider 4 years recent enough, which then I just feel people are not so easy to forget and in their minds they feel like they seeing something sooner then later.and before generations when was green hill use again? If you count spin off that would be sonic advance 3 right? Neo green hill? That was in 2004,that is a 9 year difference! That’s enough time even though that want even made by sonic team if I remember(thq made it,)still long time since then.

       1. You’re being this guy. Don’t be this guy. We’re talking about spirit and intent here, not literal metrics.
          http://i.imgur.com/DpQ9YJl.png

          1. But if you talking about “spirit and intent here, not literal metrics” then don’t you think that what you should be stated and not the green hill problem? Like I said the problem is what they use the style for in different levels similar to green hill with not much a difference( definition of this can be different from person to person) then them just throwing green hill every chance they get.

       2. I think his point is that while the literal Green Hill level itself has only been used 2 times in mainstream Sonic titles that were easily accessable to everyone and didn’t have to be unlocked thru special conditions or anything (if you counted unlocks, then it would technically be 4 titles, and if you counted non-mainstream you’d have at least 5, maybe up to 10 if you include all spin-offs), it’s style and aesthetic has definitely been used a lot in almost every main series title. Emerald Hill, Palmtree Panic, Seaside Hill (albeit it’s a bit of it’s own thing now), Neo Green Hill, Leaf Forrest, Sunset Hill, etc, not to mention more recent outings like Splash Hill and Windy Hill which are essentially Green Hill by different names and artistic styles.

          It IS a style and look that has been used extensively in the series. However, it’s a style that I EXPECT from the series, in the same vain that I expect at least one level in Mario to have a mushroom aesthetic, or a basic grassy Mushroom Kingdom level. I don’t think it’s something that has ruined the series and I don’t think it should go away, but it definitely should have a lot more experimentation and new ideas applied to it in each game to at least TRY and make each one a unique experience.

          1. I get wanting more experimentation if you going to give us another green like hill level, but it wasn’t that long ago that people were bashing sega and sonic team for changing ideas(lost world) so why is it everyone up and arms about what looks like(hard to judge on a short trailer) back to a formula that working for them. And if you want to judge spirit and intent then by that logic Mania needs to be there too. Oooo a cave section in green hill,uh that has been done twice even!. Generations and 8 bit sonic game, but I doubt nobody going to criticize it cause why,2d sprites sonic that looks like the good Ole days that’s why. The game not even out yet we criticizing the intent by adding another green hill, but if sonic mania was the only game out i bet everybody would be like lets be patient and wait and see, don’t judge it is not out yet. I just don’t get it lol

          2. “It IS a style and look that has been used extensively in the series. However, it’s a style that I EXPECT from the series, in the same vain that I expect at least one level in Mario to have a mushroom aesthetic, or a basic grassy Mushroom Kingdom level. I don’t think it’s something that has ruined the series and I don’t think it should go away, but it definitely should have a lot more experimentation and new ideas applied to it in each game to at least TRY and make each one a unique experience.

             I’m ALL for GHZ clones, if they at least try to make each iteration unique (EHZ, Palmtree Panic, Seaside Hill). It’s when they stopped trying to do anything even remotely unique with the motif and either just reverted to straight up GHZ or just slapped a different name on it (Splash Hill, Windy Hill) that I start to lose patience.

             1. @ChaoticFox

                Yes. Absolutely! You can see how the decline in originality over the years. It went from “GHZ inspired” to “literally GHZ except for the name.”

          3. @ChaoticFox

             Couldn’t agree more with that statement, well said.

15. Modern Sonic sucks too. Sonic Unleashed is awful and these games are a laughing stock. Only Mania is good.

16. 100% agreed, especially about Classic Sonic being in Forces, the saddest thing is that Sega has said time and time again they are changing their ways but they just keeping riding on nostalgia to sell copies, that and/or being too afraid to be creative and original again.

    1. What choice does SEGA have when the studios they give the series to have put massive bombs? The decisions with Forces are likely because SEGA has them on a short leash to prevent or minimize another failure. Sonic Team has clearly shown that they create trainwrecks when they try to be creative and if they put out another bomb I doubt SEGA would just give them another slap on the wrist. If you look at the big picture you’d see what SEGA means when they want to change their ways, look at it outside of what Iizuka and his buddies want for the series, I’ll give you a hint about this look at up a comment made by a marketing director made about future Sonic titles in 2015, it in my opinion hints at what SEGA itself or at least SEGA West want the direction to be versus what Iizuka/Sonic Team wants.

17. Eh, I’d still say they’re a BIT crazy, considering how over-the-top their reactions are. You can be justifiably disappointed in something and NOT curse Green Hill and Classic Sonic’s inclusion with over 20 different colorful words every other sentence. I mean you proved that enough with this article. Talking angry and bitter doesn’t make anyone take you any more seriously, especially if you’re focusing on that instead of trying to make your point more clear and understandable to other people who might not feel the same way you do.

    I won’t be convinced to be pissed off with you if you’re only focusing on being pissed off about something. More people aught to take notes from this and just calmly justify what their problem is instead of just going around shouting “OH BLOODY HELL SEGA, ENOUGH WITH THE GREEN HILL AND CLASSIC SONIC ALREADY, YOU’RE F***ING RUINING A PERFECTLY GOOD THING YOU S***-STAINS!” Now I’d say THAT is a reasonable assessment.

    Needless to say, I don’t mind Green Hill or Classic’s inclusion NEARLY as much as the rest of you seem to, I don’t have anything against the idea of of including them even after all this oversaturation (though I will admit it is kind of becoming a problem what with their focus on a cartoony aesthetic and Iizuka’s agenda to make Sonic more and more Mario-like to the point that his classic elements are reused in every single game released from this point on with only minor variences. But I think that’s focusing a little more big-picture, for now let’s stick to the topic). I would just prefer that they do something new, creative, and smart with them if they choose to reinclude them long after it makes sense to just include them like in Generations.

    Granted, so far it seems by the numbers, but that really is because they decided to A) Show us a pretty poor example of what new exciting things we can expect from the inclusion (Yeah, showing off Classic Sonic in a Green Hill environment isn’t really shocking or surprising as many people as it once did in Generations when that’s something we literally haven’t seen in decades), and B) Show us very little of it, and again, the bits they DID show weren’t too impressive in their own right, with a pretty generic “floating highway” path for the grassy hills and a shuttle loop that just looks pasted on there with no natural signs of having been rooted in that environment, the lazily placed boost pad and other things.

    They’re basically going to have to make up for this by dropping a lot of info and footage at E3 this year. Maybe not too much that they’re pretty much out of ammo between now and Winter, but enough to dissolve any fears or concerns and replace most of that with more reasons to be excited again. There’s still a lot that hasn’t been shown or explained properly, so there’s plenty of chance for this to turn around and not be nearly as bad of a thing as most of us are probably thinking it is.

    1. @Hero

       Yes, you are so right! The belief itself isn’t crazy, but some fans certainly express it in very ridiculous way.

       “You can be justifiably disappointed in something and NOT curse Green Hill and Classic Sonic’s inclusion with over 20 different colorful words every other sentence.”

       ^ I love this sentence! Amen

       1. @ Noah Copeland

          Thanks, nice (and kind of bizarre to be honest, lol) to get mod praise sometimes, though I guess I’m more used to people disagreeing with me and mouthing off to me on this site and Sonic Stadium, so any compliment feels pretty cosmic at this point, lol.

          But yeah, learning to express your differing opinions in a less adversarial (or straight-up dickish) way is one of the many important lessons the fan base as whole needs to learn someday, the sooner the better. The second after that would probably be to stop shaming its fellow fans for liking particular things so much, like OCs or less-popular games. But one lesson at a time I guess, lol.

          @ Vincentk I guess that’s kind of why the idea that Classic Sonic and (seemingly) Green Hill are back doesn’t really strike me as odd, cringeworthy, or even unwarranted in any capacity (or at least not in THAT much of a capacity). It may not have been released in the actual 25th anniversary of 2016, but it IS still an anniversary title at heart, the same with Mania. Seeing old stages and old faces revisited is something that we normally wouldn’t give a second thought about when it comes to an anniversary title, but since the last one was pretty much the last major Sonic game that EVERYONE (Nintendo, Sony or otherwise) had access to and heavily emphasized the idea of re-exploring the past with a more modern take, to many people it probably feels like getting off one boat, taking a short taxi ride to another harbor, only to get on another boat. It’s still kind of a different leg of the journey, but it does seem a little eerily similar or routine considering how short the gap between them was, relatively speaking.

          I mean, 5 years have still passed since Generations, but since there hasn’t been too many main series releases lately and it sounds like A LOT of the fans on this site prefer to stick with the main series exclusively and don’t even register Boom or Runners as distractions, let alone time-killers, they likely just perceived the whole “wait” as “Sonic 4, Sonic Generations, Sonic 4 II, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Mania, Sonic Forces”. In that sense, I guess they aren’t really “counting” Sonic 4 either as it was a relatively smaller title divided into two halves with the vague possibility of getting bigger. Also, people never count what they don’t like, unless they’re really open-minded and are able to find ways to still justify against their own opinions where it makes sense to. So then that becomes “Generations, Lost World, Mania/Forces”, and while Lost World was very experimental in nature, it still tried to maintain some sense of familiarity by trying to take on a more classicy cartoony appearance with a very basic Mario-esque elemental level progression theme (as well as other Mario-physics rip-offs, but I’m starting to curve into personal opinion territory now, so I’ll just leave that for another day), so even while being “too new” for some people, it still appeared like it was trying to be “too old/familiar”…somehow. That game is just confusing to me to be honest.

          Anyway, with all that in mind, it makes sense that people are under the impression that we’ve at least gotten 3 games in a row where Green Hill is in it, or at the very least a very convincing duplicate of Green Hill that isn’t trying too hard to convince you that it isn’t Green Hill.

          As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t mind the Green Hill aesthetic being returned to in almost every title, even in a literal “yes we’ve actually brought back Green Hill zone in name and everything” sense, I just would prefer that each time it is done it is handled in a way that makes each “GHZ-clone’s” experience unique to what came before it. Green Hill to Emerald Hill and Palmtree Panic is a good example of clear similarities yet still having a lot of unique elements and twists to the same concept, Emerald Coast and Windmill Isle are good examples of more radical shifts of the concept while still maintaining the spirit, Seaside Hill is a fine example of a mixing or compromise between the previous concepts, Tropical Resort is an interesting case of outright experimentation and mixing things up with a concept by maintaining only one key element (in this case the “tropical” theme, it pretty much just has palm trees, tikis, and the Palmtree Panic soil, otherwise it’s pretty distinct), and Generations GHZ (and SA2 Battle GHZ, cause why not?) is a prime example of straight up returning to the actual concept with no pretenses and yet STILL adding in a lot of new elements to refresh and update the idea.

          People never really complained when all these happened, mostly because they had enough new added to them that made them distinct and appealing enough to be taken as their own experiences separately, enjoyed for their own sakes and not because of direct association for a particular fun level from the past (at least, not by itself). The only ones that they tend to have more problems with are ones like Splash Hill Zone and Windy Hill Zone which, while still having some elements unique to their own games (granted, Green Hill never let you bounce on clouds or swing from vines at any point), they still didn’t make too hard of an effort to distinguish themselves, their styles, or even their characters (as stages) as something that you can appreciate mostly for it’s own sake and not solely from pure association of Sonic 1. The only thing different was their overall art styles, yet both were still trying to harken to the Classic days anyway so even then it’s a bit of a hollow defense.

          So to bring things back to topic, I think that as long as they try to follow the patters that the more favored GHZ clones have followed in how they are a tiny bit derivative but still bring a lot to the table to make themselves stand out as their own unique experiences, then when most people get their hands on this game, they’ll be more willing to look past the seemingly copy-and-paste aesthetic of the Green Hill (now with sand) Zone. The only thing that kind of threatens that right now is just a few glaring moments of gameplay impressions, but even then, it still feels like too little to draw a conclusion from, at least from my perspective.

          About Classic, I essentially feel the same way I do with GHZ, as long as there is something unique and fun added to his experience to make him distinct (and perhaps even improved upon) from his Generations counterpart, I have no problem with the concept of him joining Modern Sonic being used again, especially for an anniversary title of all things, the only time I would ever expect that to happen again. If you use him in every Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, or Sonic Lost World that comes around between anniversaries, then yeah, it does get a bit redundant at that point, and I do feel that if Mania and Forces had a bit more time between their releases (maybe even up to a whole year, but I know the fanbase be itchy, despite their desire for quality first), it would have softened the blow of having so much Classic Sonic all within the same year (then again, no issues were had with Sonic CD a month later after Generations, unless you’re willing to tell me that remasters “don’t count”). But again, as long as the Classic/Modern teamup concept isn’t used every year there isn’t a milestone anniversary, it won’t feel THAT stale to me, at least not that quickly (go more than three anniversaries in a row with it however, well, then I might have a problem).

          And the bottom line from me on the classic elements overall use thing: the anniversaries should be free to use that aesthetic however they like since it is a setting where one would most likely expect that direct of harkening to nostalgia to take place in. But as a compromise, I would hope that they try to make more of an effort to not rely on it so much when it comes to making their main series titles that aren’t releasing on milestone anniversaries. There’s plenty of other styles to take inspiration from between every 5 years, whether you’re going for a cartoony style or a realistic style or some artful step in-between. I would personally recommend more inspiration from real-world locations again. It doesn’t have to be as explicit as Unleashed was (or SA2, again) but it always helps to find something extraordinary in life first, then apply a fantasy element to it. I mean in the end, that’s what Green Hill Zone started as, an homage to every idyllic green pasture, valley, and coastline out there with a very stylized and fantastical look applied to it. Just apply the same spirit to every other zone out there. I think that’s what most fans are craving right now, something that can still be a reference to something else, but maybe something that hasn’t quite been referenced yet (or enough).

          I guess you could call THIS my own “reasonable assessment”, lol. I write too much.

          1. @HERO
             “Thanks, nice (and kind of bizarre to be honest, lol) to get mod praise sometimes, though I guess I’m more used to people disagreeing with me and mouthing off to me on this site and Sonic Stadium, so any compliment feels pretty cosmic at this point, lol.”

             No problem. If you back up what you say in a reasonable manner, without throwing a fit, then I am happy to engage in conversation with you even if I disagree.

             I tend to believe that if one’s reasons and logic are even somewhat valid, they should be to stand on their own strengths; no need to resort to yelling as hat’s only adds artificial power, and if anything, takes away actual validity.

    2. I agree with this. We can’t go off the handle in fear off a little trailer (even if its not the best one) and shouldn’t an anniversary be enough to include classic and all the elements that define those games he in? And i hate to break it to anyone but the way they make games now with taking about 4 years or so,I will not be surprised classic sonic shows his face again because by then it will be the 30th anniversary.

       1. @VINCENTK
          Sonic Adventure 2 was an anniversary title that had memorable original stages. The only returning stages, GHZ, was only snuck in as an optional celebration from 100% completing the bonus material.

          I don’t like the idea of every five years giving us a dedicated anniversary title that beats itself over the head with reused and returning ideas. That’s not a good precedent. Not every anniversary needs to be celebrated literally (by using old stuff).

          1. Actually, I think that kind of every 5 years thing would be much better tolerated if they made more of an effort for originality in the releases in between. People are only as sick of this as they are now because it feels like every single Sonic game released between Generations and now has featured some form of Green Hill Zone or general Classic nostalgia. If there were more original concepts akin to Unleashed and Colors thrown in there, by the time Mania and Forces came around more people would probably be okay with the more classic-based decisions. Maybe not 100%, but the outrage wouldn’t be nearly as bad as it is now.

             The only flaw to that that I can think of would be if they began taking more time to complete each individual product, so instead of a major title every year, it’d be every 1.5-2 years, maybe even a full 3 if it’s ambitious enough, and then you’d basically just dedicate the remaining time towards the anniversary title. That would mean that you could have as little as 3, 2, or even 1 title between anniversaries, so if that was the case, then there wouldn’t be much of a barrier between nostalgic anniversary outings.

             I’m not saying that more originality shouldn’t be applied to the anniversary titles, if anything it’s the safest way to go in any given scenario. I’m just saying that the nostalgic element isn’t something we necessarily need to see be left alone for another 5-10 years until we’ve changed our minds and are complaining for the opposite reasons and repeat the cycle again. It should be used a little more sparingly and much more wisely in a calculated manner, but other than that it shouldn’t be abandoned altogether. Not every anniversary title should be a Sonic Generations (I mean, unless you were willing to bring the same polish and quality as Generations WITH better writing and more gameplay length and levels…), but we also shouldn’t flip our shit whenever Classic just happens to show up in another anniversary title, especially if he happens to be the only classic element to return.

18. I think the reason Green Hill is there is to soothe the haters.

    Lots of the mainline games from the early 00s got criticism (Adventure, 06, Unleashed)

    It seems like Forces is an attempt at one of ‘those’ games again, but to keep the naysayers (who only think Sonic was good on Genesis) at bay, Sonic Team felt obliged to toss in Green Hill.

    1. @Chris

       You know what, you may be right.

    2. That is another possibility, albeit a pretty short-sided one on Sonic Team’s behalf. I would hope that they’re a bit wiser than that, but then again it is kind of hard to read your fanbase (especially one as diverse and divided as this one) when you aren’t really embedded in it like fan community figures like Webber and Lopez are, so it would make sense if they made this mistake out of a small fear and pressure of that kind of complaint.

19. I totally agree, Noah. Every decade of Sonic Games except this one has that iconic one level which set it apart from the last. The 1990’s had Green Hill Zone. The 2000’s had City Escape. The 2010’s has _. I wish as you do that SEGA would reach back and discover what it was and then create, truly create. Creation is a gift. You can’t simply reproduce the same thing. That is just replication. Creation is heart and soul, through blood, sweat, and tears, being poured out into your medium, whatever it is. So far, the last two original home console games had nothing iconic. Before those, Sonic Colors was quite decent in its own right, but I never felt like it reached full bloom in any particular level. Maybe Sonic Forces will have that iconic level that defines this decade. Right now, I almost feel like the fan base is the only place where any actual creativity still thrives. SEGA had to hire out from the fan base to create Sonic Mania. Should Sonic Forces fall short, maybe SEGA’s next move should be hiring from the fan base for the next 3D Sonic game?

    1. To dove tail off on this, in contrast to what Donnie said about the hailstorm SEGA employees went through to produce games, I think we need SEGA’s employees to love what they do so much that instead of tiring over their work, they work tirelessly to achieve those dreams. No, I am not suggesting they work until they put their lives at risk. But I am throughly convinced that the only time anyone in any industry sees success is when they love what they do so much, sleepless nights and 10, 12, and 15 hour workdays are a delight to them. I have had the pleasure to watch a certain startup grow from almost nothing to a flourishing company. They interact directly with customers on an almost minute-by-minute basis and are constantly pulling 60, 80 and 100 hour weeks. But they love what they do, you know it, they know that you know it, and their latest final product, because of that passion, truly shows it. SEGA needs to continue to shed itself of its old, ritualistic corporate self and continue to adopt this sort of passion and love if it ever intends to truly create something impactful and meaningful in Sonic ever again.

       1. “I think we need SEGA’s employees to love what they do so much that instead of tiring over their work, they work tirelessly to achieve those dreams.”

          It’s worth noting that they were “tiring over their work” because SEGA was making them do it, not on their own accord, and it didn’t help that they were working for higher-ups that didn’t really work with them properly. That’s why they were tiring over it. Nothing to do with being uninterested.

    2. The world designs of Colors were all inspired and Sonic like, it felt like what would happen if they put effort in making new Classic Sonic style worlds rather than blandness like Hero’s worlds or looking through list of cities on Wikipedia.
       They of course had to go and toss all that out for Lost World because of course they did that was the game that tossed just about every single positive thing Sonic Team had made over the years into a raging tire fire.

20. Yeah, you all complain about green hill, but when a fan game is made it always takes place in green hill.

    1. Lol, but they “don’t count”. X)”

       In all seriousness, while fan creators and professional developers do kind of need to have different standards applied to them on a case by case basis, I do also feel it is a little hypocritical that we save all this ire for the “official” people while not considering other fans who are just as capable under the same standards and expectations. Again, it’s not like everyone can have access to a state-of-the-art studio even when they have the expertise for it, but when it comes to creative decisions like that that aren’t really hampered by constraints like that, I feel like we should be more consistent with our collective standards. Not in the sense that we should just call out fan creators who reuse things like Green Hill too, but more in the sense that we should hold everyone accountable when it comes to making a new Sonic experience using familiar elements in a unique way.

    2. Fan game=free.
       SEGA game=$.

       It is only natural to expect creativity when I am paying for quality.

       1. @HIFIEDGEHOG

          Yup. Exactly. Fan games are derivative by definition.

       2. And yet people complain about fan games using the grassy astethic too.in fact I feel this is exactly how all of this started

       3. I expect every project to do the best they can, money or not. I’m not going to give mercy points on a project’s quality because “it’s free”. Money gives extra incentive to try harder, but that’s no excuse to make a bad product and manage it poorly.

          If I said I’d work on a project, only to gave you a literal pile of dirt, would you excuse that because “it’s free”? No, you’d probably hate what you got.

          People have made absolutely amazing things without making a cent. There’s nothing stopping that kind of quality from happening.

          1. The problem is when you expect that as that is the standard everyone must net for now on thanks to some games now be finish, when truth be told, learning how to make games is a learning process for everyone who does it , I don’t think fair for us to put our own standards on what makes it great just cause a few fan games went fully completed.

             1. It will always be a learning process. Even veteran devs still learn new things years later.

                But you can still deliver a solid product.

21. Personally I don’t care after how many countless times they used that bland clone from Heroes it was nice it’s lame ass caved in and replaced with Green Hill especially as it felt like they were readying to have Splash Hill and it’s horrific music take that slot. SEGA stopped using the pretenders as the de facto Sonic stage it’s hard seeing that change, Sonic Team might internally feel differently but SEGA won’t allow some city stage to be that de facto stage

    “What we’ve seen of Forces‘ modern stages looks great.”
    Does it? Dashpads out the ass through linear corridors while a bunch setpices play out in the background. Not seeing any evolution from the nearly decade old Unleashed, going back to this was a good idea as continuing with Lost World’s could have been cancerous but how is Forces building on what Unleashed created? I’m expecting to more closely resemble the severely downgraded gameplay design used in Colors rather than Generations, they already hint this with the white wisp capsules.

    1. Yeah, I’m gonna be THAT guy but seriously… 40 seconds of gameplay doesn’t mean the entire Modern gameplay style will play that exact way. And if you’ve been paying any attention to 3D Sonic in general, you’d have known that nearly every first stage in 3D Sonic has been linear with added setpeices… i.e. Emerald Coast, City Escape, Windmill Isle, Generations’ Green Hill. It kinda amazes me how quickly people forget this stuff…. The Forces gameplay shown is most likely the opening level that will LIKE ALWAYS show setpeices and have linear areas… before later levels open up more. And as for Green Hill.. I personally don’t care but I will agree that there is too much of it nowadays.

22. There are parts of the article that I agree, but I’ll address the ones that I don’t, simply because…

    Considering Seaside Hill, and other vague look alikes as “another Green Hill”, is ridiculous. Seaside Hill is mostly a stone temple stage with water in it. Green Hill has NO temple elements in it. It’s pure grass, dirt, and water. So this is really grasping.
    The checkered patterns are a nostalgic nod, more than anything. Probably a good idea after all the doom and gloom from SA2.

    Why don’t we round up all stages that are cities, like Shamar, or Crisis City, etc and call them “another Speed Highway”. City stages is one of the biggest drawbacks from Generations to me, and while they return in Forces, and nobody says anything about it, I’m still ok with them.

    Green Hill as GREEN HILL has only been in 2-3 main games for the last 15 years or something. Generations, Mania and Forces if you want (although we still haven’t seen what else they’ll do to it).

    And why is it a crime in THIS franchise, to have a starting grassy-stage? Zelda always has grassy fields, starts out in a small town. Mario almost always starts in “Grassland”, Rayman always starts in Glades, etc. It’s a fallacy, yes, but the question still stands. Why not this franchise?

    IMHO it’s not a cliché if it’s a tradition.

    —

    Now, on a lighter note, there ARE people who enjoy everything about Classic Sonic.
    And I’m sure I’ll enjoy Forces’ classic side way more than the modern side.

    Sorry if the following opinion hurts anyone, but, Classic Generations plays better than a pretty much anything that came before, and maybe then only Colors might rival it. Though, to be fair, Modern Generations is EQUALLY the best kind of Sonic gameplay I’ve played for a long while, and that’s just because they allowed a bit of branching out in the otherwise corridor-focused stages.

    So what if Classic doesn’t play like in Mania or the old Genesis physics? If it’s a variant that plays close enough, it’s good to me.

    .. after 17 years of experimenting, people really want to tell me with a straight face that Modern Sonic has kept his gameplay exactly allike? Please….

    I consider myself REALLY lucky here, because on my other favorite franchise’s side, I’m not sure we’ll EVER see a fully rendered 3D CLASSIC Megaman game on a home console, ever. Like, he’s stuck in pixel mode, forever.

    Classic got rendered in 3D… if he has to sacrifice a BIT of gameplay for that to happen, so be it. We’re still getting Mania with his 1:1 physics, but also get to appreciate the breath-taking 3D scenarios provided by the Hedgehog Engine and its successor.

    Back to Classic in “2.5D” I consider this a branch of its own. Because hey… at one point we had Modern Sonic in 2D on handhelds AND 3D for consoles or like a decade, and again, people did not complain.

    Having a full game dedicated to boosting is not going to be as appealing nor as profitable as everyone is imagining it’s going to be. They did say it’s really expensive to produce these stages for one to just… boost through.

    Well, that’s all. 😛

    1. Yes, Seaside hill is it’s own unique thing, but in the context of the 25 years of checkboard tiles, it doesn’t help the cause.

       In isolation, yes, Seaside Hill is great.

       When you zoom out and add it to all the other stages…that’s a different story. It’s loses impact because of the laundry list of GHZ type stages. Which is unfair, because Seaside Hill actually tried to do something unique.

       That’s my point here. Yes, TECHNICALLY a stage literally called Green Hill has only been used a certain number of times, but a name only means so much.

       Just go pull up a screen shot of Windy Hill. Its painfully trying very hard to make you think of Green Hill. The intent and spirit is 100%. It does not matter that they changed the title slightly.

       Here:
       https://youtu.be/v5t0iLy7kmo?t=43s

       1. How does it lose its impact? If anything, it strengthens it.

          The checkerboard look is now seen as a staple in the Sonic universe and not JUST a Green Hill Zone thing specifically from Sonic 1. It’s also hardly anything like GHZ aside from that. Even the water element is different. One feels like it’s a lake. The other feels like the name suggests, a sea. And there’s no reason why this trope can’t just be a trope like any other In the franchise.

          You can dislike it and say it doesn’t impact you as much as you prefer it to. But but making something frequent doesn’t make it bad. It’s practically part of the formula that Sonic will, half the time, start off his adventures here or somewhere similar because, idk, MAYBE HE LIKES IT THERE. You leave your home almost everyday. It’s not cliche. XD

          Nothing wrong with how you feel of course. Just saying, I can see what the previous comment was getting at and why it’s not really a “problem” and no one ACTUALLY cares. lol

          1. @Axx “How does it lose its impact?” To clarify, the checkerboard aesthetic loses impact, not specifically Seaside Hill itself.

             “But but making something frequent doesn’t make it bad.” No, it doesn’t make bad. But it can certainly make you numb to it.

    2. …I mean, I LOVE city stages, so no complaints here. :/

23. How can you be 100% sure that this stage IS from Green Hill Zone. It looks different and covered in desert. It could be a new Zone that is reminiscent of GHZ.

    1. Does it matter?

       It’s got choppers, wood bridges, totem poles, palm trees, sunflowers, and checkerboard dirt. It IS Green Hill Zone, whether or not it literally has a title card that says, “Green Hill Zone.”

24. So, here’s my two cents on the issue:

    I think Sonic Team is using Green Hill Zone as a short-hand for “Classic Sonic’s Home World” nowadays. That’s why in a story context, it makes sense to show him in that place.

    I imagine it went something like this:

    The writers of Sonic Forces wrote something like “Classic Sonic is taking his daily leisurely stroll through his familiar land, when Eggman suddenly appears, unleashes a horde of enemy robots and turns the water into sand.”

    Now the Sonic Team level designers got the story papers and read that they will have to show Classic Sonic running through “familiar landscapes in his home world”. Of COURSE they will decide on Green Hill Zone. Most people would also remember Casino Night Zone or others, but if they want to be sure that everyone playing the game understands what’s happening, they’ll choose the one stage EVERYONE knows.

25. My sentiments exactly. Neegan couldn’t have hit it on the head any better.

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