Warren Graff On Forces Trailer: “Just A Game I Wrote, No Big Deal”
Depending on your preference with story writing, this news will make you react positively or negatively. We now know who is writing Sonic Forces, thanks to a new tweet.
Depending on your preference with story writing, this news will make you react positively or negatively. We now know who is writing Sonic Forces, thanks to a new tweet.
Just a game I wrote, no big deal. https://t.co/xAPcADKkih
— Warren Graff (@warrengraff) May 16, 2017
I love how this game is just ticking off all the boxes of things I listed fans don’t want (personal list I made, will share if requested).
Yes, share it. I have got to see this for myself and see just how many of your problems apply to me as well.
Sure thing, here it is. Keep in mind this is based on my perception:
What fans want:
+more playable characters that aren’t Sonic or variations of Sonic
+fresh, original stage ideas with less boosters and springs (automated segments)
+Pontac and Graff fired and new writers brought in who understand Sonic & co. better so we can get a better written story
+no Wisps, more classic powerups
+more in-game content, DLC even
+a new Crush 40 vocal song created for the game
What Izuka gives us:
-only Sonic & variations of Sonic playable
-rehashed stage ideas and concepts, filled with automated segments that take control away from the player
-Pontac and Graff writing a nonsensical story filled with corny jokes, bad use of characters, and lack of seriousness
-Wisps constantly returning for no real reason and being nowhere as fun as in Colours, classic powerups often missing
-little extra content that makes the game rather short
-no new vocal songs from Crush 40 or anyone really (Forces is getting one though)
What remains consistent throughout:
+gorgeous visuals from the Hedgehog Engine
+fantastic music, usually by Tomoya Ohtani
+good/average voice acting
-lack of use for many characters
-Eggman being a barely credible villain
-awkward difficulty spikes/drops
-things nobody asked for
That whole “what fans want” category does not speak for the entire fanbase. In fact, the only thing on there that fans are actually in agreement on is DLC.
Donnie, a little surprised by that comment. Doesn’t sound like something you usually say. This was a list from that person’s perspective. Personally, I think a lot of people would agree with the comment actually. From what I usually see that is. o.O
“This was a list from that person’s perspective.” If it was implied as such. Which it wasn’t.
“Personally, I think a lot of people would agree with the comment actually.” And a lot of people would disagree.
He said it was based on his perception.
And a lot would disagree, but a lot more would agree. Or at least a lot more would be vocal about agreeing, as the list is very similar to what I almost always hear even in these comment sections. lol
“a lot would disagree, but a lot more would agree.” And, again, how do you know this? This topic is literally going around in circles.
“Or at least a lot more would be vocal about agreeing, as the list is very similar to what I almost always hear even in these comment sections. lol” And there it is. They’re vocal about it. When you angry, you’re more vocal about how you feel about something compared to people who are just fine with it. And if you don’t have a problem with something, you’re not going to say much about it, now are you? As a result, a vocal minority comes off as the majority. And even if they were, keep in mind that there’s many many Sonic fans who aren’t even in the Sonic community. I’d say there’s roughly 10,000-15,000 Sonic community faces around the internet. That doesn’t compare to the 1-2 million that Sonic games are capable of selling.
Yeah Donnie, I think you’re way off here. While there may be some fans who disagree with that list, I doubt they’re the majority. At the very the least, they don’t make as much noise as the hardcore fans over at, say, Sonic Retro, who regularly complain about nearly all those things.
“While there may be some fans who disagree with that list, I doubt they’re the majority.” How and why do you doubt they’re the majority? Because they disagree with you?
You know, even though you wrote this piece yourself, you’re coming off as incredibly hypocritical, Donnie. You wrote yourself, and I quote, “Depending on your preference with story writing, this news will make you react positively or negatively.” And yet in the comments section, you’re going around being incredibly defensive against anybody who does react negatively towards this news, as well as any other problems they have with the game. The reason why TyrantLizardKing shared his list, which he did state in that very same post, is so other fans such as myself could compare their greivances with what the common criticisms against the series seem to be nowadays.
I wrote that myself because, yes, people have their own preference with story writing. But if it was just nothing more than “preferences”, I wouldn’t have said a thing. It’s the reasoning given, the argument you have for that criticism that I’m responding to. Have you noticed I haven’t replied to anyone criticizing Green Hill returning in Forces? Because I feel there’s a reasonable case for that which people have been making. The arguments being made for that, to me so far, haven’t had flaws. But the reasoning given for the writing and character editor? I’ve seen arguments given that felt flawed to me. Speaking of flaws in arguments, one of those flaws I tend to see is hypocrisy. About calling me a hypocrite…
“yet in the comments section, you’re going around being incredibly defensive against anybody who does react negatively towards this news, as well as any other problems they have with the game.” Have you read even a single comment that I have said? Better yet, why is just about every counter-argument I get basically just “stop defending this game” or “you’re not letting people be negative”? I find it rather amusing that people can be as negative as they want with this game, but I make a few comments, mostly replies to what someone else said to me previously, and suddenly I’m “incredibly defensive”.
I did miss the part where he did actually clarify in his post that it was his own preference, which I apologize for. But outside of that, a lot of my point still remains. It’s the case you’ve built for your opinion, not the opinion itself, that I take notice of. Make a case? Expect people to reply. It’s no different to the many In-Depth articles I write. People will reply to them with their own input.
Gotta love your sonic.
My reaction is pretty much negative, yes.
I don’t understand why Sega insist to keep them around, they were behind my least liked Sonic stories ever, comics and tv shows counting.
They never wrote for any of the comics or shows. There are completely different people writing for the Sonic Boom cartoons and Ian Flynn was actually in charge of the comics. Both handled the Boom brand much better than Pontac and Graff handled Rise of Lyric.
What I mean by that is that I like other games, cartoons and comics stories more than the stories they wrote for Colors, Generations and SLW.
Oh, okay. The phrasing of that sentence confused me a bit.
Is this still Treehouse Friends?
Amourshipping for the win. 😉
…I can’t bring myself to care of make a big fuss out of this right now. I’m tired. I’m still conflicted on the big whiplash from “these guys rock” to “these guys suck” and whether or not they deserve the hate. I’m tired. If I had something else to say, I’d put it here. I’m tired. Of a lot of things.
I’m assuming Ken Pontac will be working with him… if you guys don’t like their writing the best thing to do is to tweet at them and give them your feedback!
Customers have every damn right to complain. We are not obligated to like anything from this mess of a series. If they don’t complain, there’s no feedback, and SEGA won’t see a problem. Goddamn, I’m tired of these fans that defend any shit SEGA throws at them.
I completely agree with Tomoki. You can’t even make a joke without someone getting offended.
Look I’m not defending anything… if you wanna hate on the game fine, but I’m just saying if you have something wrong with what you see… talk to the people who are presenting it.
I know that’s the hard way because they won’t always reply to you, but it’s the right way!
Enough of the drama… the fanbase has a bad reputation already, no need to make it worst!
I thought it was pretty obvious that you meant to stop uselessly complaining in place of feedback IF you wanted to make a change. XD
You literally told people to “STOP COMPLAINING”. How about stop telling people how to feel? If people like it, they like it, but if people don’t like it, you can’t stop them from expressing it, regardless of how over the top and dramatic it is. You can’t be positive nor negative without someone getting their panties in a bunch, but that’s the norm on the internet. Get used to it.
“You can’t be positive nor negative without someone getting their panties in a bunch, but that’s the norm on the internet. Get used to it.”
You know what should be the “norm on the internet”? Not acting like the internet suddenly gives you the power to do whatever you want, no matter how much of a jerk you act, without consequences, and then telling people who just simply want a mature, friendly conversation to “get over it”. Because, and I’m going to be quite blunt, enablers of this behavior are exactly why it’s the “norm” in the first place.
“We are not obligated to like anything from this mess of a series.” No, but as a Sonic fan, I would expect people to be a fan of Sonic in some way, regardless of whether the series is “a mess”. You’re also not obligated to hate anything either. It goes both ways.
“I’m tired of these fans that defend any shit SEGA throws at them.” And I’m tired of people who think their opinion about “SEGA throwing shit” is fact and berate anyone who is even the slightest bit positive about Sonic or just wants people to stop being so toxic over a video gaming franchise. I, personally, wouldn’t have used the word “complaining” to describe it, especially considering that contradicts the whole “give them your feedback” thing and comes off like criticism isn’t allowed, but I can see where they’re coming from.
Haha, here it comes again.
I ain’t berating anyone who’s positive about it. I honestly don’t care if people like it or not. Every new Sonic game is a mixed bag. They’re always gonna react this way, and I don’t know why you’re not used to it by now.
Getting offended over how people react over a video game seems like a personal problem, Donnie. I honestly don’t give a shit how ‘toxic’ it is. I have many, MANY problems with Forces, but at this point, I’m just too tired to talk about it anymore. People like it, sure, but if they don’t want to debate their opinion, they can just choose not to reply. There’s no point. It always goes nowhere, but the feedback should definitely be more directed at SEGA in some fashion, but I doubt they’ll care anyway. So I’m just gonna go fuck off somewhere and play some games I actually like, while waiting for games I’m actually excited for.
Have a good day.
“They’re always gonna react this way, and I don’t know why you’re not used to it by now.” Because it’s not a good thing to react this way? Yes, I’m used to it. But that doesn’t automaticaly make the behavior right.
“I honestly don’t give a shit how ‘toxic’ it is.” And that’s why it’s toxic in the first place. Because nothing is done. People just moan about how toxic it is, and do nothing about it.
“So I’m just gonna go fuck off somewhere and play some games I actually like, while waiting for games I’m actually excited for.” I wish more Sonic fans did that. There is nothing stopping them.
I get you, Dom. You’re just saying IF someone really wants the writing to be better, then why not give them the feedback for them to work off of rather than just moaning and griping to other fans. And I’m sure you find it annoying, but I’m pretty sure you werent telling anyone to stop complaining in general, just to find a more productive response if you care so much. It was very context-bsse as a suggestion. I feel bad for the backlash you just got. XD
I was cool with everything they were showing of Sonic Forces and then this just had to fucking happen.
Seriously, it’s a major hype-killer. XP
At this point, I wouldn’t mind having the ‘Boom TV writters on the game instead of Lost World ones.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand there goes my hype. Never have I gotten so excited and hopeful for Sonic again and then completely sucker-punched into disappointment within the same day. That character creation system really sold the game for me, it made this game much more promising than the same-old, same-old classic Sonic/Green Hill Zone shtick had been doing so far. And then they just had to go and fucking keep these idiots around, as if they were interested in learning every other lesson EXCEPT for that one. I’m really starting to question if Iizuka is really cut out for managing Sonic anymore, he just doesn’t seem to see the problem with these guys. XP
Whoa it’s one thing to dislike their writing, but calling them idiots is a bit harsh. .-.
Harsh or not, it’s completely justified, these guys have been given way more chances than is reasonable and they’ve consistently failed each time. HOW CAN YOU BE THIS CONSISTENTLY AWFUL AT SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR JOB!? It’s gotten to the point that not only am I convinced that they can’t write for Sonic to save their lives, I don’t think they can even write for anything for that matter.
Not even close dude.
The Sonic cycle prevails!
GODDAMMIT SEGA WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS DO ME?!
ARE YOU STUPID?!!!
I was all in with forces. I thought it had promise. I liked the custom character thing! but CONGRATULATIONS! WITH THIS NEWS ALONE, I WILL NOT BUY SONIC FORCES.
Comments like this are a very good example of how not to give feedback about something.
I calmed down. I had a bad day and that piece of news really didn’t help. I admit I went too far on that comment. In any case. This really worries me. I wish I could say that maybe they’ll get a good story this time but when his attitude is saying “It’s not a big deal” it tells me that he doesn’t seem to care. I was almost sure Ian Flynn was gonna get his chance this time (the man proved himself a great writter many times and always wanted to write for a game”. So that comment by Graff is speacially upsetting (I the writter doesn’t seem excited about what he made, how can?)
At the very least there might be a chance that this will go like Generations, where the gameplay is really great but the story is par for the course with Pontac and Graff, either nonexistent or just very awkwardly written. I really want to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that they actually did make a great story for this game this time, not for their sake, but for the sake of the game itself. But considering their track record, I am now officially worried for this title. How Iizuka can keep trusting these guys, I’ll never know.
In all fairness, it’s kind of expected these kinds of reactions after the repeated requests for Sega to stop using these writers. Fans really don’t like them and the implication that the company is holding its hands to its ears and yelling to itself is infuriating.
“it’s kind of expected these kinds of reactions after the repeated requests for Sega to stop using these writers”
Except they haven’t really been repeated requests. This problem didn’t arise until Sonic Lost World, and even then it wasn’t as critical as it is now. And Sonic Forces entered development by Lost World’s release.
“Fans really don’t like them” No, some fans really don’t like them. A lot of people don’t really have a problem with it, or don’t feel it is that big of a deal and won’t make/break a game for them.
“the implication that the company is holding its hands to its ears and yelling to itself is infuriating.” Except that’s not what SEGA is doing. And honestly, the fact people are still acting like SEGA doesn’t listen to them just because they’re not getting a serious, edgy story or humor that specifically appeals to them is getting to be more infuriating at this point. Because it has nothing to do with SEGA listening or not.
I gotta agree with Donnie on this one. While I do acknowledge a LOOOOOOOT of fans don’t like them, that’s not everyone. They were originally praised for Colors with some critiques and then Lost World was seen as some improvement but with some bigger criticism as well. If anything, they’re controversial. A lot of fans simply don’t mind. If love to see Ian write for a game and I was kinda hoping for a different type of story, but I don’t mind this nor do I know what exactly to expect. I also don’t blame all the story problems I have on just them. And, like Donnie said, the big hatred didn’t really happen until Lost World which was the last Sonic game released prior to this. And it was mostly because Pontac and Graff were revealed to have not previously known the storyline of Sonic. So when they went the extra mile and did the research, which they weren’t really paid for, fans decided to see that as them “not doing enough research”. The overall attitude of the Sonic characters seem to be a commercial choice. So for being new to the series and following the preexisting transition of personalities, they wrote the characters surprisingly in character.
You know, I always appreciated how Tristan would never get too involved in the comments and wouldn’t try to tell fans what what they should and shouldn’t say when they complain, or that they shouldn’t complain at all.
Wow. There are some really angry folks here. I step away from the fan base for a sec, looked at the new Sonic games and go “Hey! These look good!” Come here to find much strife amongst ya’ll. Thought we’d all be on the same page…then I remembered who I’m dealing with here lol
It’s literally just over the writers for the game, everything else about the game people seem to be on the same page, more or less. And at this point I feel it’s justified, these guys can’t write their way out of a paper bag with the word “plot” written on it. 😛
Yeah they kinda suck lol. As long as the gameplay is good and there’s a skip button I’m cool.
I can’t say I’m the biggest fan of such silly writing, at least not continuously as it makes feel distant from the rest of the timeline, but I can’t say I hate it either. Heroes was worse and the STRUCTURE of the story is a bit more solid than some previous Sonic games.
Tho, if the fans don’t seem to like it, idky they stick with it. At the very least, Graff (and Sonic Team/SEGA) could keep this under wraps until the game is sold in the case it’s improved a lot so fans don’t get prejudice.
Oh well. XD
It’s not even that they’re trying to be “funny” anymore, their more recent attempts at both humor AND drama in Generations, Lost World, and Rise of Lyric did more to hurt those games than help them. At this point I’d almost rather take another Colors plot, at least they actually put SOME amount of effort into that, with Generations it’s like they stopped caring half-way through.
Well I mean, there’s no where to make the characters go nor anything important to have them do that would compliment the stages or the hub world I guess. They did the time travel Time Eater story thing. And Classic Sonic wasn’t speaking, which they mimic with Modern Sonic in his version of the same clips (saving the friends) soooo that’s not really a lot to work with. lol
Guess Grand Theft Auto will replace Sonic as my #1 favorite franchise soon.
Sega hasn’t learned much from Lost Cause mistake, boy.
If I’m gonna be honest… I really don’t like Graff’s works within the Sonic series. The story of Colors and Generations were okay, albeit with little to no interaction between other characters (This one is more pointed at Colors, since Generations is more of an anniversary game than a serious title.) and the fact that none of the characters really took things seriously at all. (That being said, I still love the “no copyright law in the universe” line. I dunno, it’s just so ridiculously out of place to the point that it’s good.)
As long as the writers learned their numerous mistakes from Lost World and actually try to learn more about Sonic and Tails’ character & personality (Instead of watching only a few cutscenes…), I have a bit of faith for the story of Forces. However, that faith is on a very frail string as is. And I really hope this isn’t the actual direction that Forces takes… https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_91LRSU0AAaS84.jpg
So not only can I not play as my favorite characters and have to be stuck as some random OC I slap together, the rest of the cast are being written by the guys who wrote the plot of Lost World….
Think of all the smug self aware jokes they’ll insert about original the character it’s either or the characters going on about how Mary the Sue is the greatest most perfect Sonic friend ever, hell it will probably be a mix of both. I think it will somehow out-cringe Lost World
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I’m getting really sick of the solo-Sonic pandering (like he’s the ONLY character that matters, and as if casuals only care about playing as themselves), as well as the dumbed-down writing. But here’s a scenario: Plenty of boost segments where you have almost zero 360 degree control of Sonic and reach portions of the stage where you auto switch to Classic Sonic or OC, while Sonic’s friends on the radio (especially Tails and Amy) nag you to stay focused on the “mission”, treating him like an idiot younger brother, as Sonic continues to make bad jokes and cringey one-liners that Pontaff is known for.
You can only imagine what the next NON-MOBILE will be like.
This is starting to feel like Rayman: Raving Rabbids.
Okay, here is my feedback, though I doubt it’ll make any difference at all. I am not happy with this product so far for the following reasons.
-Modern Sonic is using Colors gameplay, a style I was never a fan of. If it really is like Colors, then everything will feel arbitrary and automated. All spectacle, no substance nor depth. 3D spaces are only ’empty hallways’ that serve no purpose other than spectacle for boosting and homing attack chains. I personally would’ve preferred a slower platformer approach, similar to how Sonic controlled in the Sonic Adventure games, but I prefer the level design of Adventure 1, with more openness, more alternate routes, and much more use of physics, momentum, flow, and terrain-based platforming. The boost formula might serve better as a subseries, possibly one based around racing or time attacks, if it cannot be used in a more effective way for platforming, and cannot stand on its own without the use of alternate play styles.
-I am worried that wisps will be overused as a gimmick, I was okay with them being a one-time thing for Colors, but I really don’t want these power-ups back as a ‘staple’ for the series. They change how Sonic plays entirely, just for a quick ‘puzzle’ segment, and it breaks the flow of the game, and it just isn’t fun to use. I’d much rather they bring back the Elemental Shields and expand upon them. Maybe even make NEW Shields for Sonic that doesn’t change his gameplay entirely, but just gives him an extra move to work with.
-Classic Sonic is being used as a crutch-filler as you will. His presence is just there to make the game last longer, and of course try to win people over with nostalgia-going as so far to include Green Hill Zone, a stage, that, while iconic, is far too overused in the series lately.
-Classic Sonic’s gameplay is not very faithful to the Genesis Sonic games, unlike Mania. Instead, it seems more like Sonic 4 Episode 1 without the Homing Attack. Like Modern Sonic, I fear his stages will be too automated, with stages like this version of Green Hill relying heavily on boost pads and springs. The inclusion of those ‘hidden springs’ from Lost World is also troubling, as it feels completely unnecessary in many areas, where the player can simply just jump over a platform instead.
-The ‘Custom Hero’ feature. While not a bad idea in itself, I feel like the stats are not varied enough between races, since it seems to just affect lives/rings/invincibility, rather than actual difference in abilities such as speed/power/flight. As with the other two playstyles, I also fear the Custom Hero stages will also be linear and automated for reasons stated above.
-A lot of folks have been drawing comparisons to Dragon Ball Xenoverse and its sequel to Forces’ ‘Custom Hero’ system. However, unlike Forces, Xenoverse allowed me to play as characters other than 2 versions of Goku and my custom character. Xenoverse had a very large roster of characters to play as, and they all had the same fundamental gameplay style, just with unique combos and abilities, which is something I’d like to see incorporated in the future, at least with even just Tails and Knuckles being playable would be satisfactory for me. Having just the character roster be 2 Sonics and a Custom Character just feels odd and unbalanced. I’d much rather see Sonic’s friends playable again, but have them play similarly to Sonic, just with a few unique moves that allows them to access alternate routes, similar to the Genesis/Mega Drive games and the Sonic Advance Trilogy.
-Music, Ohtani’s works are nice, but I’d like to see more rock music like Senoue-san’s works from back in the Adventure days and Heroes. I feel like Ohtani, while he’s very talented, lacks the ‘oomph’ on his own. He should work with more composers, so that Sonic games can have more varied soundtracks like in the Adventure days.
-Story/Writing. Never was a fan of the works of Pontac and Graff, so seeing them return again makes me worried over the story’s quality. Their characterizations of Sonic and friends are very exaggerated, to the point of making them often feel like different characters than previous games. Their humor is also too juvenile for my tastes, with jokes such as ‘BALDY MCNOSEHAIR’ and ‘BEST BOSS BEATING EVER’, and that awful ‘DID SOMEBODY ORDER A CLOBBERING?’ jokes from Colors, and Tails’ all around awful characterization, where now he’s like Sonic’s little brother that looks up to him, but rather a snarky, self-centered brat that berates Sonic frequently. I also dislike how in recent games that Tails has been given such a backseat role, with him hardly ever being involved in the action, just sitting around just explaining to Sonic the plot of what’s going on in the game and telling him how to save the day. That just isn’t fun. He’s supposed to be Sonic’s sidekick, yet he’s not very active. I’m sure many Tails fans would overjoyed to see Tails, and quite frankly, characters like Knuckles, Amy, and even Shadow, be used in more proactive roles going forward. Having a serious plot is fine, so long as you don’t go overboard like with Shadow and 06, but plots like the Adventure games and the Storybook games were fine, I think. More stuff like that would be great.
All in all, I’m very disappointed in this product, from what I’ve seen and heard of it so far, and I don’t think I will be purchasing this game, though I’ll probably get Sonic Mania instead.
I’ve been a big fan of the Sonic franchise for many years, and it saddens me that, I’m losing interest in series that was so dear to me for many years. Alas, if it continues on this current path, I, and quite possibly, many other longtime fans, may no longer find themselves invested in this series any longer. I’m sure others may enjoy it, but this is my personal subjective opinion.
Have a nice day.
Said it better than I ever could. Really, it’s kinda sad to see how stiff the Modern style trying to go back to Colors is after everything games like Unleashed and Generations did right for that style.
That and having a character that’s literally just “take all the extra moves form characters and put them in one customize mode” instead of balancing them out between a decently sized playable roster just feels lazy.
If this was a message to Sega. I would cosign it. Too bad they will probably never listen. Still I remain hopeful for the next Sonic game.
You summed up my feelings perfectly, I’m still looking forward to this game though, at least for me it seems like a step in the right direction coming after Lost World, but I agree with your concerns especially regarding classic Sonic, the boost gameplay and the story.
I thought these guys were way better than a lot of stuff that came before it, mainly Sonic heroes, shadow, rivals, 06, free riders, secret rings, runners, and sonic adventure 2.
That’s a lot of games I consider worst in their story compared to sonic colors, generations, and lost world. I think these writer will do, no need to jump to a new writer every game. That would be inconsistent and not very focused.
There’s going to be a serious tone issue if Graff does not adapt to this game’s premise. Either way, Sega has learned nothing.
I genuinely feel embarrassed every time I see a comment section like this. This fandom really earns its reputation.
You must be new here. Welcome to the Sonic Fanbase. It’s been very divided for a very long time after SEGA decided it was a good idea to make Sonic into something totally different for various games over the years, thus creating different ‘factions’ of the Fanbase. Find your faction and stick with it, and you’ll eventually get used to this stuff.
How can someone be new based on saying they are embarrassed after common experiences and noting a known reputation? o.O
If it makes you feel better this is kind of normal for big franchises, check Star Wars threads, Marvel comics, DC comics, etc., every big franchise have very vocal and divided fandoms.
Agreed. Its just how ppl are. Its not the only horrendously stupid thing to come out of large numbers in the human race. XD
After blank custom character, I’m not too surprised.
Stay the fuck away from the Sonic franchise! Go write for Teen Titans Go! or Skylanders!
I have to prep my comment. Please give me a moment. lol
this is for the fans who are really disappointed and angry and will still buy the game. *sigh*. this is gonna be long, but it has to be done.
This prolly won’t be a reply so i’m gonna say that rn, lol
damn spelling errors
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